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  1. Standard memberLundos
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    16 Apr '17 17:48
    So we now have an dictator in Turkey too. A sad day for the Turkish people.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/vote-leads-turkey-constitution-referendum-170416151913460.html
  2. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 18:12
    People are stupid. Its a sad thing that we have to live with them.
  3. Germany
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    16 Apr '17 18:26
    Unfortunate.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
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    16 Apr '17 18:35
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    People are stupid. Its a sad thing that we have to live with them.
    What's the benchmark for declaring a population stupid?

    US voting for Trump? UK voting for Brexit?

    We have to live with people - true. Is that sad?
  5. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 18:481 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    What's the benchmark for declaring a population stupid?

    US voting for Trump? UK voting for Brexit?
    Yep, I think those, plus the Turkey thing, more or less proves it.

    We have to live with people - true. Is that sad?
    Its sad that we have to try and live with the stupid ones, while they try their darndest to ruin it all.

    I used to blame the problems of African politics on the fact that the vast majority of the population has nearly no education. But I had thought that the US and UK populations were reasonably well educated. It turns out I was wrong. Either their education systems suck, or education isn't a cure for stupidity. Given the obviously poor education of some posters here, I am going with the former as the most likely explanation.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    16 Apr '17 19:14
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yep, I think those, plus the Turkey thing, more or less proves it.

    [b]We have to live with people - true. Is that sad?

    Its sad that we have to try and live with the stupid ones, while they try their darndest to ruin it all.

    I used to blame the problems of African politics on the fact that the vast majority of the population has nearly no educat ...[text shortened]... poor education of some posters here, I am going with the former as the most likely explanation.[/b]
    To be fair, Brexit only passed by 51 percent, barely qualifying as a majority. Had just a few people voted against
    Brexit and it was barely defeated, would they still be a "stupid" population?

    With Trump, not only did he win several states by only one percent (and some states by even less than one percent), but more people voted against him than for him.
  7. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 19:41
    Originally posted by vivify
    To be fair, Brexit only passed by 51 percent, barely qualifying as a majority. Had just a few people voted against Brexit and it was barely defeated, would they still be a "stupid" population?
    To be clear, I never once declared any population stupid. It does, however, seem that there are an awful lot of stupid people, a lot more than I previously believed.

    With Trump, not only did he win several states by only one percent (and some states by even less than one percent), but more people voted against him than for him.
    Well if I moved to the US, I would try to move to a state where he lost by a reasonable margin.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    16 Apr '17 21:38
    What voters decide is in their own best interests can be quite unexpected until their opinions are properly investigated. In 19th Century England, extension of the franchise was often beneficial to the Tories and not to Liberals let alone the early socialists, while when trade unions were defended by Parliament even under Tories or free trade Liberals this was seen as a way to promote market forces; they often acted as a brake on radicalism as people identified their interests with those of their employers. In the early years of Labour, opponents (Tory and Liberal) sometimes stood aside because it suited them to have a working class politician in Parliament, restraining the demands of the working class. Disraeli was only one of many politicians who learned the art of manipulating public opinion by appealing to interests.

    In Turkey's case, the issues are simply not as black and white as a vote for or against tyranny. I fear that racism interferes with the way our media represent this referendum. Nor is western democracy a shining light to emulate. Many Turkish citizens experienced enforced secularisation as deeply offensive, and the reality is that islam is as likely to prosper in opposition to secular values in Turkey as evangelical Christianity does in supposedly secular USA.

    At the most abstract and general level, there is arguably a conflict between those looking to Europe for their future aspirations and those looking for a revival of the Muslim World to which they always belonged. In terms of trade blocs, there is some suggestion that, having been faced with such pervasive racism in their dealings with the European Union, serious Turkish interests are turning their attention instead to possible membership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), in which they would be far more culturally at home and enjoy serious prospects of playing a significant role, comparable in some ways to the old Silk Road system.

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkey-russia-china-shanghai-cooperation-organization-2016-11?r=US&IR=T

    It is debatable if the new constitution is really unlke that of the USA or France, for example, though it is generally accepted to be authoritarian. Authoritarian politics are more viable in the context of war and violent unrest, which Turkey suffers in abundance. Potential allies to the East, rather than the West, include some very classical dictatorships in the former USSR countries. If you have a neighbour like Syria, or Iraq say, and internal secessionist movements (PPK) then there are some reasons to feel more secure under a dictator - at any rate, it is not irrational or stupid to consider that a serious choice.

    All in all from this brief survey, I have trouble accepting the depiction of Turkish voters as stupid. They live in a very tough environment and are making tough choices to deal with it. It is a bit rich to imagine they do not appreciate the stakes here. If Western commentators wish to argue the merits of Western democracy then this should at the very least be based on a realistic assessment of the way Turkey has experienced Western influence.
  9. Joined
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    17 Apr '17 12:25
    In The Netherlands, roughly 70% of the "Dutch Turks" - or "Turkish Dutch" - have voted "yes". I already knew Erdogan had won before seeing it on the news because the Dutch Turks/Turkish Dutch were once again driving their cars through the streets honking their horns.

    What great times we live in.

    Very nice to see that "racism" has already creeped its way into this thread.

    Now, back to what crazy thing Trump has tweeted about today 😵
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Apr '17 16:191 edit
    Originally posted by Lundos
    So we now have an dictator in Turkey too. A sad day for the Turkish people.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/vote-leads-turkey-constitution-referendum-170416151913460.html
    Apparently this "dictator" is limited to two five year terms and has powers similar to the US President:

    One of the proposed changes is that all future presidents will face the electorate every five years and, like the US, be limited to serve only two terms in office. The parliament will have jurisdiction to initiate an investigation if a president is under suspicion of committing crimes. In its current form, the constitution protects the president from all judicial authorities in the country.

    "No appeal shall be made to any judicial authority, including the Constitutional Court, against the decisions and orders signed by the President of the Republic on his/her own initiative", to the proposed version which reads: "A motion for initiating an investigation of the president on allegations of a crime must be given with an absolute majority of the members of the Grand National Assembly. In case an investigation is opened, the investigation is carried out by a 15-member committee made 
up of the political parties in the parliament in proportion of their power. The Grand National Assembly can take the decision to send the president to the Supreme Court with two thirds of its members' secret votes."

    Additional limitations of presidential powers are proposed under the following change: "The basic rights, personal rights and duties and political rights and duties that are in the constitution cannot be regulated by presidential decree. If there are conflicting provisions in presidential decrees and laws, laws prevail. If the Grand National Assembly issues a law on the same topic, the presidential decree becomes obsolete."

    This ensures that legislative power remains with the elected representatives of the people, of whom there are currently 550 in the parliament, but the number will be raised to 600. It is also proposed to lower the age at which a member of the public can become a member of parliament. In line with the common examples all around the world, age of candidacy for the parliament will be lowered from 25 to 18.

    As stated above, proposed amendments will also regulate military-civilian relations, and reform undemocratic military regulations. No NATO country has serving military officers in their Supreme Courts except Turkey.

    With the amendment, the military will no longer have seats in the Supreme Court. Military jurisdiction will also be regulated: namely, the jurisdiction of military courts will be transferred to civil courts, and the Supreme Military Council decisions will be open to judicial review. Last but not least, the Turkish armed forces will be audited by the State Supervisory Board which currently has the authority to audit all public institutions expect the army.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/04/turkey-referendum-democratic-quest-170410074709544.html

    Granted that piece is from one of Erdogan's political allies but the changes made don't seem as drastic as some are making them and they hardly create a "dictator": http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2017/03/turkey-change-votes-april-16-170329120509568.html
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Apr '17 16:28
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    In The Netherlands, roughly 70% of the "Dutch Turks" - or "Turkish Dutch" - have voted "yes". I already knew Erdogan had won before seeing it on the news because the Dutch Turks/Turkish Dutch were once again driving their cars through the streets honking their horns.

    What great times we live in.

    Very nice to see that "racism" has already creeped its way into this thread.

    Now, back to what crazy thing Trump has tweeted about today 😵
    And they weren't tear gassed and/or beaten by police?
  12. Germany
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    17 Apr '17 16:41
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    And they weren't tear gassed and/or beaten by police?
    Technically honking one's horn without a valid reason is a traffic rule violation, so they might get fined for it.
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    17 Apr '17 16:43
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    And they weren't tear gassed and/or beaten by police?
    AFAIK no. In general, Dutch police don't use (excessive) force until thugs start throwing chairs and rocks hither and tither.

    This is because The Netherlands is - for the most part - a very civilized country.
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    17 Apr '17 17:04
    Originally posted by Lundos
    So we now have an dictator in Turkey too. A sad day for the Turkish people.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/vote-leads-turkey-constitution-referendum-170416151913460.html
    They are Islamic.

    It's the only way.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Apr '17 20:252 edits
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    AFAIK no. In general, Dutch police don't use (excessive) force until thugs start throwing chairs and rocks hither and tither.

    This is because The Netherlands is - for the most part - a very civilized country.
    Funny, every nationalist in the world says that about their own police esp. when the people being tear gassed and beaten are members of a disliked minority.

    This looks "very civilized": https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9af_1489324203
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