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Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
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    29 Mar '17 14:062 edits
    YouTube

    I'm asking for fact-checking of the history that this video lays out. I repeat: fact-checking only. Please refrain from debates, unless it is about the points made in the video. One thing the video claims is that there's no Palestinian state, which seems wrong. Right?

    There is obvious pro-Israeli bias in the video, I should warn you. This is why I'm asking for fact-checking, and what important details may have been left, or what points may have been spun incorrectly...or, if this video is actually accurate.

    Thanks in advance.
  2. Cape Town
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    29 Mar '17 14:21
    It's notable that the second world war and the holocaust and its outcome are not mentioned.
    He also keeps talking about 'the Arabs' without specifying which group in particular.
  3. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    29 Mar '17 16:02
    Originally posted by vivify
    [youtube]76NytvQAIs0[/youtube]

    I'm asking for fact-checking of the history that this video lays out. I repeat: fact-checking only. Please refrain from debates, unless it is about the points made in the video. One thing the video claims is that there's no Palestinian state, which seems wrong. Right?

    There is obvious pro-Israeli bias in the video, I s ...[text shortened]... may have been spun incorrectly...or, if this video is actually accurate.

    Thanks in advance.
    As generally pro-Israel as I am, that video is full of spin, half-truths and out-of-context assertions.
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    29 Mar '17 16:07
    Originally posted by vivify
    [youtube]76NytvQAIs0[/youtube]

    I'm asking for fact-checking of the history that this video lays out. I repeat: fact-checking only. Please refrain from debates, unless it is about the points made in the video. One thing the video claims is that there's no Palestinian state, which seems wrong. Right?

    There is obvious pro-Israeli bias in the video, I s ...[text shortened]... may have been spun incorrectly...or, if this video is actually accurate.

    Thanks in advance.
    Why?
    What is the point of questioning the facts?
    It sounds legit to me, because the Arabs have continually insisted on the total annihilation of Israel as the only solution.
    And that fact is easy to find.
    It is pure hatred.
  5. Standard memberRemoved
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    29 Mar '17 16:15
    I found this which includes 3 of the times, the older ones I have not looked up and do not plan to.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=83&x_article=2116
  6. Standard membervivify
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    29 Mar '17 16:20
    Originally posted by sh76
    As generally pro-Israel as I am, that video is full of spin, half-truths and out-of-context assertions.
    Can you name just a few examples? I realize this sort of topic takes time to answer, and can't rightly be answered with a quick reply. When you have time, I'd appreciate any specific items you took issue with.
  7. Cape Town
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    29 Mar '17 16:31
    Originally posted by vivify
    Can you name just a few examples? I realize this sort of topic takes time to answer, and can't rightly be answered with a quick reply. When you have time, I'd appreciate any specific items you took issue with.
    The basic premise of the video is that the Palestinians have been offered the chance to have their own statehood, but they rejected it - multiple times. The speaker then goes on to list times when 'the arabs' were supposedly offered a chance to make a state in the region and they seemingly turned it down. No details are given as to what the actual offer was, two whom the offer was made, by whom, under what conditions and what the 'turned down' actually consisted of. As one point it seems to suggest that there were negotiations with Sudan. It is well known that some parts of Israel are known as 'occupied territories' who are they occupied from?
    I am personally largely ignorant about the history of the region, but it is blatantly obvious that most of the video is complete nonsensical spin.
  8. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '17 20:341 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    [youtube]76NytvQAIs0[/youtube]

    I'm asking for fact-checking of the history that this video lays out. I repeat: fact-checking only. Please refrain from debates, unless it is about the points made in the video. One thing the video claims is that there's no Palestinian state, which seems wrong. Right?

    There is obvious pro-Israeli bias in the video, I s ...[text shortened]... may have been spun incorrectly...or, if this video is actually accurate.

    Thanks in advance.
    As a general rule, academic historians fact-check only books or articles by other academic
    historians, though some academic historians write reviews of popular history books.

    Anyone could produce an ignorant or disingenuous YouTube video of history as propaganda.
    Only extremely ignorant, lazy, or foolish people prefer to 'learn history' from YouTube videos
    produced by people with no known credentials than from serious academic history books.
  9. Standard membervivify
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    29 Mar '17 20:39
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The basic premise of the video is that the Palestinians have been offered the chance to have their own statehood, but they rejected it - multiple times. The speaker then goes on to list times when 'the arabs' were supposedly offered a chance to make a state in the region and they seemingly turned it down. No details are given as to what the actual offer w ...[text shortened]... of the region, but it is blatantly obvious that most of the video is complete nonsensical spin.
    Thanks for your input.
  10. Joined
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    29 Mar '17 21:26
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    As a general rule, academic historians fact-check only books or articles by other academic
    historians, though some academic historians write reviews of popular history books.

    Anyone could produce an ignorant or disingenuous YouTube video of history as propaganda.
    Only extremely ignorant, lazy, or foolish people prefer to 'learn history' from YouTube videos
    produced by people with no known credentials than from serious academic history books.
    It is absolutely ridiculous to think that you can only learn from books. You yourself love to claim you realized the truth of your position by speaking to someone. People can learn from first hand experience, videos, chat rooms, television, movies or all sort of alternative sources . Furthermore, the fact that you stated that someone is "extremely ignorant, lazy, or foolish" for learning from a YouTube video only further cements your reputation as obnoxious and ignorant.
  11. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '17 21:46
    Originally posted by quackquack
    It is absolutely ridiculous to think that you can only learn from books. You yourself love to claim you realized the truth of your position by speaking to someone. People can learn from first hand experience, videos, chat rooms, television, movies or all sort of alternative sources . Furthermore, the fact that you stated that someone is "extremely ign ...[text shortened]... or learning from a YouTube video only further cements your reputation as obnoxious and ignorant.
    The idiotic racist troll Quackquack's known as a fanatical lying propagandist for Israel.
    Quackquack's completely ignorant and disdainful of the norms of academic historical scholarship.

    If Quackquack were to pay (assuming that he could meet the minimum academic requirements
    for admission) the University of Exeter (UK) to learn history from Ilan Pappe (an Israeli Jew),
    then I doubt that Ilan Pappe would assign the watching of any YouTube videos.
    I already expect that Quackquack will refuse to read any of Ilan Pappe's books.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9

    "Ilan Pappé (Hebrew: אילן פפה‎‎; born 1954) is an Israeli historian and socialist activist.
    He is a professor with the College of Social Sciences and International Studies at the
    University of Exeter in the United Kingdom, director of the university's European Centre
    for Palestine Studies, and co-director of the Exeter Centre for Ethno-Political Studies.

    Pappé was born in Haifa, Israel.[1] Prior to coming to the UK, he was a senior lecturer in
    political science at the University of Haifa (1984–2007) and chair of the Emil Touma
    Institute for Palestinian and Israeli Studies in Haifa (2000–2008).[2] He is the author of
    The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006), The Modern Middle East (2005), A History of
    Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (2003), and Britain and the Arab-Israeli Conflict (1988)."

    Books (by Ilan Pappe)
    The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge. New York: Verso. 2014.
    The Bureaucracy of Evil: The History of the Israeli Occupation. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. 2012.
    "The Boycott Will Work: An Israeli Perspective" in Audrea Lim (ed.) The Case for Sanctions Against Israel. London & Brooklyn, NY: Verso. 2012.
    The Forgotten Palestinians: A History of the Palestinians in Israel. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. 2011.
    (with Noam Chomsky) Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on Israel's War Against the Palestinians (Hamish Hamilton, 2010). ISBN 978-0-241-14506-7
    Out of the Frame: The Struggle for Academic Freedom in Israel. London: Pluto Press. 2010.
    The Rise and Fall of a Palestinian Dynasty: The Husaynis, 1700–1948. London: Saqi Books. 2010.
    The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (London and New York: Oneworld, 2006). ISBN 1-85168-467-0
    The Modern Middle East (London and New York: Routledge, 2005). ISBN 0-415-21409-2
    A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (Cambridge University Press, 2004), ISBN 0-521-55632-5
    (With Jamil Hilal). Parlare Con il Nemico, Narrazioni palestinesi e israeliane a confronto (Milano: Bollati Boringhieri, 2004).
    The Aristocracy: The Husaynis; A Political Biography (Jerusalem: Mossad Byalik, (Hebrew), 2003).
    The Israel-Palestine Question (London and New York: Routledge, 1999; 2006). ISBN 0-415-16948-8
    (with M. Maoz). History From Within: Politics and Ideas in Middle East (London and New York: Tauris, 1997). ISBN 1-86064-012-5
    (with J. Nevo). Jordan in the Middle East: The Making of a Pivotal State (London: Frank Cass, 1994). ISBN 0-7146-3454-9
    The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947–1951 (London and New York: I.B. Tauris, 1992; 1994). ISBN 1-85043-819-6
    Britain and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1948–1951 (London: St. Antony's College Series, Macmillan Press; New York: St. Martin's Press, 1988). ISBN 0-312-01573-9
  12. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '17 22:062 edits
    There's a vast gulf (more like the Pacific Ocean) between the extremely pro-Israeli popular books
    or videos that most ignorant Americans love to lap up and most serious academic scholarship.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaming_the_Victims

    "Blaming the Victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question, is a collection
    of essays, co-edited by Palestinian scholar and advocate Edward Said and journalist
    and author Christopher Hitchens, published by Verso Books in 1988."

    For instance, many ignorant or dishonest American supporters of Israel like to trot out
    _From Time Immemorial_ by Joan Peters as a definitive history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
    When published in the USA, it received ecstatic reviews in nearly all of the mainstream US media,
    including accolades by prominent pro-Israeli American Jewish cultural figures or intellectuals.
    It won a US National Jewish Book Award. It was very popular among ignorant Americans.

    In contrast, _From Time Immemorial_ received scathing reviews about everywhere else.
    Even in Israel, Joan Peters (who had no credentials as a historian) was dismissed as a
    lazy propagandist who had cut-and-pasted (including plagiarism) much long discredited
    pro-Israeli propaganda and exploited it to gain fame by deceiving gullible, biased Americans.
    A 'scandal' soon developed, with some prominent American Jewish intellectuals trying
    to backpedal their glowing comments about _From Time Immemorial_ by Joan Peters.

    In academic historical circles, it's well-known that _From Time Immemorial_ is worthless.
    Anyone who cited it as an authoritative reference would be ridiculed by the knowledgeable.
    But some ignorant laymen, particularly Americans, may keep embracing its propaganda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

    "Anthony Lewis, in an opinion piece for The New York Times compared American and Israeli responses to the book:
    'Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have. Perhaps that is
    because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the
    past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people
    identity. As Professor Porath says, 'Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself
    gains anything from mythologizing history.'"

    _From Time Immemorial_ flagrantly 'mythologizes history' in the service of pro-Israeli propaganda.
    Many Americans admire that and love to keep doing that.

    "Writing for The New Yorker in 2011, David Remnick described the book as "an ideological tract
    disguised as history", "propaganda" and "pseudo-scholarship". He stated that while the
    book was a commercial success and had been praised by a number of writers and critics,
    it had been thoroughly discredited by Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath along with many others."
  13. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '17 22:122 edits
    Somewhere there may be ignorant, gullible people who comes across a YouTube video
    of _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ and believe that it must be true.
    (Should that not make a 'I know it from YouTube' fan like Quackquack happy?)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

    "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Russian: Протоколы сионских мудрецов) or The
    Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is an antisemitic fabricated text
    purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. The forgery was first
    published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated
    internationally in the early part of the 20th century. According to the claims made by
    some of its publishers, the Protocols are the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting
    where Jewish leaders discussed their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the
    morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies.

    Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the U.S.
    in the 1920s. The Nazis sometimes used the Protocols to stir up propaganda against the
    Jews; it was assigned by some German teachers, as if factual, to be read by German
    schoolchildren after the Nazis came to power in 1933,[1] despite having been exposed
    as fraudulent by The Times of London in 1921. It is still widely available today in
    numerous languages, in print and on the Internet, and continues to be presented by
    some proponents as a genuine document."
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