Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    24 Apr '16 22:114 edits
    My primary source is _The Spanish Holocaust_ by Paul Preston (2012).

    During the Spanish Civil War, General Franco's side, which may be described
    (albeit with academic quibbling) as Fascist and posed as the heroic defenders
    of Western Christian civilization, engaged in systematic sexual violence against women.

    "...the systematic persecution of women ... Murder, torture, and rape were
    generalized punishments for the gender liberation embraced by many, but
    not all, liberal and left-wing women during the Republican (anti-Franco) period.
    Those who came out of prison alive suffered deep lifelong physical and psychological problems.
    Thousands of others were subjected to rape and other sexual abuses, the
    humiliation of head shaving and public soiling after the forced ingestion of castor oil."
    --(p. xix)

    Franco's forces regarded the mass rape of women and girls in areas
    believed to have opposed him as a justified form of collective punishment.
    One of Franco's generals became notorious for his radio broadcasts in
    which he boasted that he had promised to let his soldiers rape as many
    women and girls as they wished if they fought hard and won their battles.
    He often threatened the women of Madrid (which opposed Franco) with mass rape.

    Western journalists reported that many of Franco's soldiers boasted openly
    of how much they had enjoyed raping women and girls, even to death.
    An American journalist was present when two teenage girls were handed over
    to a platoon of (40+) soldiers eager to rape them. As the raping started,
    the men's cries of excitement drowned out the girls' cries. pleas, or screams.
    The American journalist stood by helplessly. A smirking pro-Franco officer
    told him not to be bothered, saying that he expected the girls to be dead by morning.

    "Rape was a common occurrence during interrogation in police stations....
    At night, Falangists (Fascist supporters of Franco) took young women away and raped them.
    Sometimes their breasts were branded with the Falangist symbol of the yoke and arrows.
    Many were impregnated by their captors. The executions of women sentenced
    to death who were pregnant were *sometimes* delayed until they had given birth...
    Nevertheless...*numerous pregnant women* and nursing mothers were shot."
    --(p. 511)

    A pro-Franco Catholic priest (a prison chaplain) appealed to a pro-Franco judge
    that the execution of a young woman must be postponed because she was pregnant
    (perhaps by rape). The judge refused, saying that it was impractical to
    wait several months before executing every pregnant woman (of many).

    So, in supposedly defending Western Christian civilization, the Fascists
    not only systematically raped women and girls, sometimes to death,
    they also executed pregnant women and girls.

    Why was there so much rage by pro- Fascist men at every supposedly 'liberal'
    woman or girl whom they perceived as not conforming to traditional feminine submissiveness?
    What these men feared and hated most was any educated woman with a mind of her own.

    I expect that some of 'the usual suspects' in this forum may deny, of course, that there
    was any evidence of misogyny or rape culture in Franco's right-wing Christian Spain.
    But what happened there shows clearly a relationship among Fascism, misogyny, and rape culture.
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    24 Apr '16 22:57
    Nobody here has any reason to defend Franco.
  3. Standard memberSleepyguy
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    24 Apr '16 23:07
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Nobody here has any reason to defend Franco.
    Duchess thinks little of us, and expects us all to start defending fascism, misogyny and rape.
  4. Zugzwang
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    24 Apr '16 23:372 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Nobody here has any reason to defend Franco.
    If so, that would be on account of ignorance of the long Western support or sympathy for Franco.
    In fact, Franco was long widely admired and supported, particularly by the right-wing, in the West.
    Winston Churchill said that Franco's victory in the Spanish Civil War was preferable to the alternatives.
    During the Cold War, it was US political orthodoxy that Franco had saved Spain from Communism.
    '
    And there was much right-wing propaganda that Franco's victory was good for women in Spain.
    Franco was supposed to have saved good Christian women from being raped by his godless enemies.
    To this day, some Franco supporters like to tell wildly exaggerated stories about how
    Franco's enemies enjoyed raping Catholic nuns in public before sometimes crucifying them.
    Paul Preston estimates, however, that only about a dozen Catholic nuns were raped.

    So when one brings up the subject of sexual violence in the Spanish Civil War, many
    right-wing people like to believe that it's about the (rare) rapes of Catholic nuns by
    Franco's enemies rather than the much more common rapes done by Franco's forces.
  5. Zugzwang
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    24 Apr '16 23:442 edits
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy to AThousandYoung
    Duchess thinks little of us, and expects us all to start defending fascism, misogyny and rape.
    I think very little of Sleepyguy, who has a long record of misrepresenting me.
    Contrary to his false claim, I don't 'expect *all*' writers here to defend Fascism, misogyny, or rape.
    But I know that *some* extreme right-wing writers here seem sympathetic to Fascism, if not Fascists themselves.
    And I know that *some* writers here are misogynists, though they hardly would admit it.
    And I know that there are at least several rape apologists still at RHP (Dasa was banned).

    I also know that some writers here apparently prefer to deny the existence of rape culture
    in every Western Christian society, believing it can exist only in non-Western or Islamic societies.

    I no longer am surprised by about anything, however absurd or outrageous, written in RHP forums.
    Can't Sleepyguy find some right-wing sources harping upon the raping of Catholic nuns by Franco's enemies?
  6. Standard memberbill718
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    25 Apr '16 03:292 edits
    I expect that some of 'the usual suspects' in this forum may deny, of course, that there
    was any evidence of misogyny or rape culture in Franco's right-wing Christian Spain.
    But what happened there shows clearly a relationship among Fascism, misogyny, and rape culture.



    This "suspect" would not deny any of this. They are historical facts. What this "suspect" does not understand is why 98% of your posts point out only the evil men do, and almost none of the positive. It may shock you to learn that men (on rare occasion) do things that are positive.

    Just a humble observation from an ignorant, evil, sexist, trolling white man. 😲
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    25 Apr '16 04:531 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If so, that would be on account of ignorance of the long Western support or sympathy for Franco.
    In fact, Franco was long widely admired and supported, particularly by the right-wing, in the West.
    Winston Churchill said that Franco's victory in the Spanish Civil War was preferable to the alternatives.
    During the Cold War, it was US political orthodoxy t ...[text shortened]... tholic nuns by
    Franco's enemies rather than the much more common rapes done by Franco's forces.
    No, it would be on account of the people on this forum are 95% Anglo-Saxons who have a long history of spreading the "Black Legend" in which they demonize anything Hispanic.

    http://www.thefullwiki.org/Black_Legend#Spanish_Civil_War

    While the Spanish Civil War in 1936-1939 aroused among the international Left and Right strong waves of support and admiration for the corresponding sides in Spain, there was a considerable part of international public opinion that disapproved of both sides in the civil war. For them, the widespread atrocity stories emanating from Spain (and often exaggerated as part of both sides' war propaganda) were taken as a new proof of the supposed inherent brutality of all Spaniards, whatever their politics.
  8. Zugzwang
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    25 Apr '16 19:441 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No, it would be on account of the people on this forum are 95% Anglo-Saxons who have a long history of spreading the "Black Legend" in which they demonize anything Hispanic.

    http://www.thefullwiki.org/Black_Legend#Spanish_Civil_War

    While the Spanish Civil War in 1936-1939 aroused among the international Left and Right strong waves of support ...[text shortened]... s a new proof of the supposed inherent brutality of all Spaniards, whatever their politics.
    Is AThousandYoung attempting to deny the existence of many atrocities in the Spanish Civil War?
    AThousandYoung has not mentioned the 'White Legend', a nationalistic glorification of Spanish imperialism.

    "The label 'White Legend' is used by some historians to describe a historiographic approach
    that they consider to go too far in trying to counter the Black Legend and which consequently
    ends up painting an uncritical or idealized image of Spanish colonial practices.
    Such an approach has been described as characteristic of Nationalist Spanish historigraphy
    during the regime of Francisco Franco, which associated itself with the past couched in positive terms."
    --Wikipedia

    AThousandYoung seems ignorant of some 'Anglo-Saxon' support for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
    Peter Kemp, a privileged conservative Protestant Englishman, volunteered to fight for Franco.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kemp_(writer)
  9. Zugzwang
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    25 Apr '16 19:491 edit
    Originally posted by bill718
    I expect that some of 'the usual suspects' in this forum may deny, of course, that there
    was any evidence of misogyny or rape culture in Franco's right-wing Christian Spain.
    But what happened there shows clearly a relationship among Fascism, misogyny, and rape culture.

    This "suspect" would not deny any of this. They are historical facts. What this positive.

    Just a humble observation from an ignorant, evil, sexist, trolling white man. 😲
    The troll Bill718 seems ignorant of the historical fact that there was far from a 50/50 'balance'
    between 'negative' and 'positive' human actions during the Spanish Civil War.
    The few acts of altruism and selfless kindness were far outnumbered by the atrocities.

    Would the troll Bill718 like to write a book about the (Nazi-led) Holocaust in which he
    emphasizes the many 'positive' actions of the Nazis toward their victims?
  10. The Catbird's Seat
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    25 Apr '16 21:28
    Originally posted by bill718
    I expect that some of 'the usual suspects' in this forum may deny, of course, that there
    was any evidence of misogyny or rape culture in Franco's right-wing Christian Spain.
    But what happened there shows clearly a relationship among Fascism, misogyny, and rape culture.



    This "suspect" would not deny any of this. They are historical facts. What this ...[text shortened]... positive.

    Just a humble observation from an ignorant, evil, sexist, trolling white man. 😲
    Very good bill. On point. 😀
  11. The Catbird's Seat
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    25 Apr '16 21:31
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    The troll Bill718 seems ignorant of the historical fact that there was far from a 50/50 'balance'
    between 'negative' and 'positive' human actions during the Spanish Civil War.
    The few acts of altruism and selfless kindness were far outnumbered by the atrocities.

    Would the troll Bill718 like to write a book about the (Nazi-led) Holocaust in which he
    emphasizes the many 'positive' actions of the Nazis toward their victims?
    Would the sexist Duchess64 like to insist that such a 50/50 balance between good and evil ever existed in any war, never mind in all of them?
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    26 Apr '16 01:053 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Is AThousandYoung attempting to deny the existence of many atrocities in the Spanish Civil War?
    AThousandYoung has not mentioned the 'White Legend', a nationalistic glorification of Spanish imperialism.

    "The label 'White Legend' is used by some historians to describe a historiographic approach
    that they consider to go too far in trying to counter the ...[text shortened]... Englishman, volunteered to fight for Franco.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kemp_(writer)
    The White Legend is spread by upper class white Hispanics.
    I don't think there are any of those people here.

    Interesting bit of trivia - George Orwell fought for the anarchists against Franco
    in the Spanish Civil War. He wrote a book about it:

    From Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell
    http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/0.html

    A Spaniard's generosity, in the ordinary sense of the word, is at times almost
    embarrassing. If you ask him for a cigarette he will force the whole packet upon
    you. And beyond this there is generosity in a deeper sense, a real largeness of
    spirit, which I have met with again and again in the most unpromising
    circumstances. Some of the journalists and other foreigners who travelled in
    Spain during the war have declared that in secret the Spaniards were bitterly
    jealous of foreign aid. All I can say is that I never observed anything of the
    kind. I remember that a few days before I left the barracks a group of men
    returned on leave from the front. They were talking excitedly about their
    experiences and were full of enthusiasm for some French troops who had been
    next to them at Huesca. The French were very brave, they said; adding
    enthusiastically: 'Mas valientes que nosotros'--'Braver than we are!' Of course
    I demurred, whereupon they explained that the French knew more of the art of war
    --were more expert with bombs, machine-guns, and so forth. Yet the remark was
    significant. An Englishman would cut his hand off sooner than say a thing like
    that.

    ...the Spaniards, I
    noticed, had a pathetic belief that all foreigners knew more of military matters
    than themselves...

    ...Every foreigner who served in the militia spent his first few weeks in
    learning to love the Spaniards and in being exasperated by certain of their
    characteristics. In the front line my own exasperation sometimes reached the
    pitch of fury. The Spaniards are good at many things, but not at making war. All
    foreigners alike are appalled by their inefficiency, above all their maddening
    unpunctuality. The one Spanish word that no foreigner can avoid learning is
    manana--'tomorrow' (literally, 'the morning' ). Whenever it is conceivably
    possible, the business of today is put off until manana. This is so notorious
    that even the Spaniards themselves make jokes about it.

    ...Listening-duty in no man's land, a
    hundred yards from the Casa Francesa, a fortified farm-house which was part of
    the Fascist line. Seven hours lying in a horrible marsh, in reedy-smelling water
    into which one's body subsided gradually deeper and deeper: the reedy smell, the
    numbing cold, the stars immovable in the black sky, the harsh croaking of the
    frogs. Though this was April it was the coldest night that I remember in Spain.
    Only a hundred yards behind us the working-parties were hard at it, but there
    was utter silence except for the chorus of the frogs. Just once during the night
    I heard a sound--the familiar noise of a sand-bag being flattened with a spade.
    It is queer how, just now and again, Spaniards can carry out a brilliant feat of
    organization. The whole move was beautifully planned. In seven hours six hundred
    men constructed twelve hundred metres of trench and parapet, at distances of
    from a hundred and fifty to three hundred yards from the Fascist line, and all
    so silently that the Fascists heard nothing, and during the night there was only
    one casualty. There were more next day, of course. Every man had his job
    assigned to him, even to the cook-house orderlies who suddenly arrived when the
    work was done with buckets of wine laced with brandy.

    And then the dawn coming up and the Fascists suddenly discovering that we
    were there.
  13. Zugzwang
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    26 Apr '16 01:121 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Would the sexist Duchess64 like to insist that such a 50/50 balance between good and evil ever existed in any war, never mind in all of them?
    Hastening to support his fellow troll Bill718, Normbenign again shows his abysmal 'reading comprehension'
    or dishonest distortions of what I write.

    The troll Bill718 apparently was complaining that my post about the Spanish Civil War did not emphasize the 'positive'.
    My response was that there was very little 'positive' in the Spanish Civil War to mention, let alone to emphasize.
    The pathological liar Normbenign hastens to distort that into another put-down of me.

    The extreme right-wing American Normbenign is a misogynist and rape apologist and
    presumably supported Franco, at least as preferable to 'leftists' being in power in Spain,
    though he might consider it expedient not to admit his pro-Franco sympathies now.
  14. Zugzwang
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    26 Apr '16 01:141 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The White Legend is spread by upper class white Hispanics.
    I don't think there are any of those people here.

    Interesting bit of trivia - George Orwell fought for the anarchists against Franco
    in the Spanish Civil War. He wrote a book about it:

    From Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell
    http://www.george-orwell.org/Homage_to_Catalonia/0. ...[text shortened]... as
    significant. An Englishman would cut his hand off sooner than say a thing like
    that.
    "I don't think there are any of these people here."
    --AThousandYoung

    What I write is not necesarily constrained by the prejudices of most writers in this forum.
    And George Orwell's participation in the Spanish Civil War is already very well-known.
  15. Zugzwang
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    26 Apr '16 01:192 edits
    Originally posted by bill718
    I expect that some of 'the usual suspects' in this forum may deny, of course, that there
    was any evidence of misogyny or rape culture in Franco's right-wing Christian Spain.
    But what happened there shows clearly a relationship among Fascism, misogyny, and rape culture.

    This "suspect" would not deny any of this. They are historical facts. What this positive.

    Just a humble observation from an ignorant, evil, sexist, trolling white man. 😲
    So the sexist troll Bill718 demands an emphasis on the 'positive' in writing about the Spanish Civil War.
    Shouldn't the lying Bill718, if alive then, have been a propagandist for Franco's forces?

    Western journalists reported that many of Franco's soldiers openly boasted about how much
    they enjoyed raping women and girls. Would Bill718 be happier and regard it as 'positive'
    if he knew that some of Franco's soldiers boasted that women and girls enjoyed being raped by them?
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