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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Aug '17 09:31
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZYHKL_1yI

    Nicely elaborated here.
  2. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Aug '17 09:35
    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.

    Among these are:

    The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;

    The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

    The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

    The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

    The right of every family to a decent home;

    The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

    The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

    The right to a good education.

    All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

    America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.


    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=16518
  3. 05 Aug '17 16:23
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to s ...[text shortened]... there cannot be lasting peace in the world.


    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=16518
    The false promises of the security of the Manor is not worth the cost of sevitude.
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Aug '17 16:46
    Originally posted by @eladar
    The false promises of the security of the Manor is not worth the cost of sevitude.
    "unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world"

    Well he got that right. Since WW2 the USA has sparked wars and sabotaged democracies across the globe.
  5. 05 Aug '17 16:49
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    "unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world"

    Well he got that right. Since WW2 the USA has sparked wars and sabotaged democracies across the globe.
    Get a job and work hard and you can have economic security.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    05 Aug '17 16:51
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Get a job and work hard and you can have economic security.
    Is that what happened during the Great Depression and after the Financial Crisis of 2008? People just decided that they didn't want a job or to work hard?
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Aug '17 18:27 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Get a job and work hard and you can have economic security.
    The evidence that a moral rejuvenation of the feckless poor would produce a blossoming of well paid and secure work is pretty thin.

    Many jobs do not offer security in any form, depite requiring hard work.

    The finite pool of jobs with the desired attributes of a good living wage and a reasonable level of security varies with the economic cycle in ways that no individual controls, and in any case over time the size of this pool of secure jobs is shrinking - for example due to new technology and automation.

    The evidence is that the best jobs are not filled exclusively on merit and that for disadvantaged groups of people there is little point applying.

    Once that finite pool of jobs is filled, then for those unsuccessful in seeking those jobs, the supply has run out and their hard work is not going to result in security after all.

    The point of the bill of rights on this topic is to impose on government a duty to improve the pool of decent jobs by means of the many policy options open to government. For example, government can impose minimum wages, fair recruitiment practices, fair conditions of work, protection against arbitrary dismissal or mistreatment, etc.

    Government can more generally put work into the economy by means of public spending when appropriate. Two occasions when this was especially appropriate were after the crashes of 1929 and 2008. On both occasions, austerity policies from right win movements seeking to balance budgets instead created conditions for social collapse on a vast scale.
  8. 05 Aug '17 22:24
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Is that what happened during the Great Depression and after the Financial Crisis of 2008? People just decided that they didn't want a job or to work hard?
    Most people still had jobs. Most people could still find jobs. Part of the problem was that we had too many illegal immigrants in this country. We still have too many today.

    Show me pictures of people starving in the US.
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Aug '17 23:27 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Most people still had jobs. Most people could still find jobs. Part of the problem was that we had too many illegal immigrants in this country. We still have too many today.

    Show me pictures of people starving in the US.
    https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-hunger-us

    You set the bar pretty low for your social ambitions.

    FDR aspired to something better and invited Americans to share his aspiration for the kind of society you could build.

    After all, it is always a choice.
  10. 06 Aug '17 02:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to s ...[text shortened]... there cannot be lasting peace in the world.


    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=16518
    What you really mean is give the government the power to redistribute all of these things, which means further destroying a free market which is the real goal.

    Isn't that right?

    Gooberment can't even come up with an adequate health care policy and we want to give them more to do?

    Hell no.
  11. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    06 Aug '17 04:17
    Originally posted by @finnegan


    The finite pool of jobs with the desired attributes of a good living wage and a reasonable level of security varies with the economic cycle in ways that no individual controls, and in any case over time the size of this pool of secure jobs is shrinking - for example due to new technology and automation.

    The evidence is that the best jobs are not ...[text shortened]... ments seeking to balance budgets instead created conditions for social collapse on a vast scale.
    With the advent of the horseless carriage and even more so the Model T which made motoring within the reach of the average Joe, the horse shyte shovelers got very worried about the new fangled technology making them redundant. Today the horse shyte shovelers entertain themselves shoveling ridiculous economic theories on the internet.

    For example boosting the minimum wage reduces employment opportunities rather than increase them. Here's how it works: A robot costs X$ to do Y work, humans cost Z$ to do X work because of goobermint regulation, when Z is more than X the robots win. Add in other risks like being unable to layoff humans in quiet times due to goobermint regulation, the robots win again.

    An absolute sure fire way to increase employment is reduce regulation and taxes (i.e. taxes: also known as a penalty for being productive)
  12. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    06 Aug '17 05:19 / 1 edit
    Oops typo in last post, it was wasted breath anyway.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    06 Aug '17 09:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    What you really mean is give the government the power to redistribute all of these things, which means further destroying a free market which is the real goal.

    Isn't that right?

    Gooberment can't even come up with an adequate health care policy and we want to give them more to do?

    Hell no.
    The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

    Remind me how the "free market" is destroyed with the enforcement of fair competition and how the free market prospers when dominated by monopolies.

    What you have in the USA is an ideology that protects monopoly power at the expence of fair competition.
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    06 Aug '17 09:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    With the advent of the horseless carriage and even more so the Model T which made motoring within the reach of the average Joe, the horse shyte shovelers got very worried about the new fangled technology making them redundant. Today the horse shyte shovelers entertain themselves shoveling ridiculous economic theories on the internet.

    For example boosting ...[text shortened]... oyment is reduce regulation and taxes (i.e. taxes: also known as a penalty for being productive)
    An absolute sure fire way to increase employment is reduce regulation and taxes (i.e. taxes: also known as a penalty for being productive)

    This is a mantra of classical economics for which the evidence base is non existent. It is a purely ideological assertion. Recycling such nonsensical slogans does not constitute reasoned debate.
  15. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    06 Aug '17 09:39
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    An absolute sure fire way to increase employment is reduce regulation and taxes (i.e. taxes: also known as a penalty for being productive)

    This is a mantra of classical economics for which the evidence base is non existent. It is a purely ideological assertion. Recycling such nonsensical slogans does not constitute reasoned debate.
    If the same result can be achieved cheaper, which option do you think will be chosen.

    A/ The more expensive option?
    B/ The cheaper option?