Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    27 Mar '18 04:221 edit
    Originally posted by @shavixmir to Sh76
    Yeah... no communist state wver produced cars...
    Many arrogant Westerners like to believe that no engineers in a
    Communist society have ever been competent in doing basic work
    and can do no better than making ersatz copies of Western designs.
  2. Subscribermoonbus
    Uber-Nerd
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    27 Mar '18 12:001 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The Trabant was designed in the mid-1950s.
    It's unfair to compare it to contemporary automobiles.
    It should be compared to automobiles of its time.

    When Ralph Nader wrote _Unsafe at Any Speed_ (1965), he criticized
    the neglect of safety by American capitalist automakers.
    The Trabi was a crap car compared to almost anything produced contemporaneously. It had a two-stroke engine, for example, when the rest of the world had long since moved on to four-stroke engines.

    https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/the-trabant-was-an-awful-car-made-by-communists-258699

    PS be sure to read the comments after the article.
  3. Subscribermoonbus
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    27 Mar '18 12:06
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many arrogant Westerners like to believe that no engineers in a
    Communist society have ever been competent in doing basic work
    and can do no better than making ersatz copies of Western designs.
    I do have an excellent binocular made in Jena. E. German optics were very good, in their day.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    27 Mar '18 19:03
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    The Trabi was a crap car compared to almost anything produced contemporaneously. It had a two-stroke engine, for example, when the rest of the world had long since moved on to four-stroke engines.

    https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/the-trabant-was-an-awful-car-made-by-communists-258699

    PS be sure to read the comments after the article.
    Consider the conditions of the 1950s DDR, attempting to recover from the war while under
    a harsh Soviet military occupation. (According to the American historian Norman Naimark,
    East German women were often (routinely) raped by Soviet soldiers with practically no
    recourse well into the 1950s.) It's remarkable that the East Germans could even design
    and produce their own car rather than be required to import all their cars from the USSR.
  5. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    27 Mar '18 19:08
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    I do have an excellent binocular made in Jena. E. German optics were very good, in their day.
    It's well-known that Germany had the world's most advanced optics industry.
    During the Second World War, superior German optics enabled German tanks to be more
    accurate in long-range fire. After the war, the Soviets confiscated most of the Zeiss factories
    in Jena and shipped the equipment to the USSR. But the East Germans still had a long
    tradition of expertise in optics to fall back upon when restarted their factory in Jena.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Zeiss_AG
  6. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    New York
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    27 Mar '18 22:441 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many arrogant Westerners like to believe that no engineers in a
    Communist society have ever been competent in doing basic work
    and can do no better than making ersatz copies of Western designs.
    I'm sure engineers in Communist countries are every bit as capable as engineers in other countries.

    But without the profit motive, their skills are mostly wasted, at least on the large scale.
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    27 Mar '18 23:042 edits
    Originally posted by @sh76
    I'm sure engineers in Communist countries are every bit as capable as engineers in other countries.

    But without the profit motive, their skills are mostly wasted, at least on the large scale.
    "I'm sure engineers in Communist countries are every bit as capable as engineers in other countries."
    --Sh76

    I have noticed common Western condescension toward even an aircraft designer such as Andrei Tupolev.
    He was confident (and probably right) that he could design a bomber as good as the Boeing B-29.
    But Stalin ordered him to reverse-engineer the B-29. By the way, the Tupolev Tu-4 is
    NOT a copy of the B-29, though it's clearly adapted from B-29s that landed in the USSR.

    The USSR had reasons to use its best engineers to design tanks rather than cars for civilians.
    Without the T-34 tank, the RKKA might have lost the war.

    "But without the profit motive, their skills are mostly wasted, at least on the large scale."
    --Sh76

    Some great scientific or technological achievements have made without any profit motive.
    Starting in 1967, China launched Project 523, aiming at developing new drugs to treat malaria.
    It succeeded in developing the most effective drug ever known against malaria.

    As far as I know, China never bothered to claim international patent protection for artemisinin,
    so it could be manufactured inexpensively abroad (without paying any royalties to the Chinese).
    Indeed, for a long time Westerners rarely gave any credit to the Chinese for developing it.
    (Some Westerners even claimed that artemisinin was a Western invention 'stolen' by the Chinese!)

    Given that a Nobel Prize cannot be awarded posthumously, I used to suspect that Tu Youyou
    (a Chinese medical researcher) would die before her work would be recognized enough in the West.
    Fortunately in 2015, at the age of 84, she received (a shared) Nobel Prize in Medicine.
    By the way, Tu Youyou never has expressed any resentment about not becoming wealthy
    (at least before the Nobel Prize money). She's not as driven by a 'profit motive' as Sh76.

    Would Sh76 like to cite any Western capitalist corporations who would have spent the money
    to develop new drugs against malaria, mostly for the benefit of poor non-Westerners?
  8. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    Provocation
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    29 Mar '18 05:27
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    One prolific writer (FreakyKBH) here has expressed his belief that the Earth is flat.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5540663/Self-taught-rocket-scientist-propels-1-875-feet.html

    "Moment 61-year-old blasts himself off the ground on a homemade steam-powered ROCKET
    at 325mph to prove that the earth is 'shaped liked a frisbee' - before landing ...[text shortened]... sbee? I believe it is,' he said.
    'Do I know for sure? No. That's why I want to go up in space.
    You've been trolled.

    Lot of people making fun of this guy but the last laugh is on them. The knowledge required to build something like this as rickety as it was is way beyond most of the commentators here and on the message board at the link. This is what we need more of, 61yo with the know how and the drive to take on this project, and no doubt broke about a hundred regulations doing it, bravo that man. All the armchair superiors have focused on the obvious bait and ignored a quite impressive feat.

    No doubt part of the plan.

    Not that far away from 61 myself, what a feeling of satisfaction and achievement to pull off such a stunt. A feeling that the internet warriors making snide, unfunny, unoriginal comments will never know, haw haw and they're the ones acting superior. A poor act indeed.
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