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  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '10 19:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Thus, mtDNA, while not being culture, genetically changes over time in a way that corresponds to cultural change. Both the physical and the psychological/social evolve over time as populations separate.


    Palynka: Can you turn the whole post into a syllogism?

    I have no idea how you reach your conclusion quoted above.


    Thread 129980 page 38
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '10 20:01
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Thus, mtDNA, while not being culture, genetically changes over time in a way that corresponds to cultural change. Both the physical and the psychological/social evolve over time as populations separate.


    [b]Palynka: Can you turn the whole post into a syllogism?

    I have no idea how you reach your conclusion quoted above.


    Thread 129980 page 38[/b]
    First syllogism (there will be more than one):

    1. Every human's matrileneal line comes from a single woman within a single population 200,000 years ago in Tanzania (other womens' sons contributed sperm though). [FACT based on mtDNA studies]

    2. Today there are many women and womens' sons all over the planet in many different populations with many different cultures and races. [FACT based on linguistic and genetic cluster studies].

    Therefore,

    3. Humanity expanded from Tanzania over the last 200,000 years to all corners of the word, and in the process populations diverged from one another both in culture and biology.
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '10 22:16
    4. Evolutionary Biology has convincingly demonstrated that biological diversification occurs when populations stop mating with one another (FACT, or at least FACT BASED THEORY based in biology).

    5. Because of 3 and 4, clearly human populations did not mate freely with other human populations in the past, which led to the different races.

    6. Humans will mate with anything they can hold down or at least won't run away or beat them up. (FACT, needs no support - just google "kink"

    7. Race, a biological phenomenon, is overwhelmingly associated with continental/geographic regions...(genetic cluster analysis).

    8. ...as well as self perceived ethnicity (genetic cluster analysis).

    9. 5,6 and 7 all show that human populations stopped mating with one another back in the past due to geographic separation, creating the different races.

    OK. Race explained. Time for the next step; correlating race with mtDNA, ethnicity and culture...
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '10 22:26
    10. Culture refers to all human phenomena that are not purely biological. (FACT by definition).

    11. Ethnicity is a function of one's culture, i.e. one is ethnic because one possesses ethnic culture (FACT by definition).

    12. Because of 8 and 11, we can see that race, which is equally biologically determined by both father and mother, is correlated closely with ethnicity, and therefore with culture, i.e. race, culture and ethnicity all correlate extremely closely.

    Now to tie mtDNA into the mix...
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '10 22:37 / 4 edits
    13. Mothers contribute more to a child's culture than fathers do under normal circumstances (Assertion based on facts such as L1 also called the "mother tongue" and the obvious fact that fathers can easily abandon children while mothers will have a much harder time).

    14. Human expansion throughout prehistory was based on the fact that there was tremendous amount of uninhabited land i.e. expansion without war against other Homo sapiens.

    15. Except in cases where men travel and mate separately from the women in a population, male and female contributions to culture will tend to be similar.

    16. "Race" studies the combined male/female biological contributions, but mtDNA analysis studies the biological history ONLY through the women (FACT based on the biology of mitochondria).

    17. In cases of ethnic conflict with inter-ethnic mating, the two parents will provide different cultural instruction to the child (FACT by definition of inter-ethnic mating).

    18. Because of 13 and 17, the mother's culture will tend to dominate in any population.

    19. Because of 16 and 18, mtDNA correlates extremely closely with culture, even in cases of ethnic mixing where races and cultures can diverge from their former correlation. This is because both are functions of the mother's geographic location, while race involves the father too.

    20. Exception - Botswana, Bushmen mtDNA, apparently Bantu culture. This comes from post-historic migrations in which the only place to expand further was into rival humans' territory, leading to an unusual pattern in which Bantu culture was adopted by the children of Bushwmen, probably due to a massive influx of Bantu men into a population of Bushmen allowing the transmission of racial and cultural influences without any mtDNA modification.

    Done. Any questions or criticisms?
  6. 14 Jun '10 00:14
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    First syllogism (there will be more than one):

    1. Every human's matrileneal line comes from a single woman within a single population 200,000 years ago in Tanzania (other womens' sons contributed sperm though). [FACT based on mtDNA studies]

    2. Today there are many women and womens' sons all over the planet in many different populations with man ...[text shortened]... e word, and in the process populations diverged from one another both in culture and biology.
    is item 1 really a fact or is it still considered a theory?
  7. 14 Jun '10 00:15
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    13. Mothers contribute more to a child's culture than fathers do under normal circumstances (Assertion based on facts such as L1 also called the "mother tongue" and the obvious fact that fathers can easily abandon children while mothers will have a much harder time).

    14. Human expansion throughout prehistory was based on the fact that there was t ...[text shortened]... ltural influences without any mtDNA modification.

    Done. Any questions or criticisms?
    why do you think item 20 is "unusual"?
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Jun '10 00:18
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    is item 1 really a fact or is it still considered a theory?
    The way you use the words "fact" and "theory" show you are probably coming from a non-scientific perspective similar to the one which came up with "evolution is only a theory". You are using them technically incorrectly.

    Take a look here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Jun '10 00:19
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    why do you think item 20 is "unusual"?
    Because of 14.
  10. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    14 Jun '10 08:21
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    13. Mothers contribute more to a child's culture than fathers do under normal circumstances (Assertion based on facts such as L1 also called the "mother tongue" and the obvious fact that fathers can easily abandon children while mothers will have a much harder time).

    14. Human expansion throughout prehistory was based on the fact that there was t ...[text shortened]... ltural influences without any mtDNA modification.

    Done. Any questions or criticisms?
    Very interesting, ATY. My original "challenge" was made as a sort of joke, but I have to applaud your willingness to be consistent. Now I almost feel embarrassed, damn you!

    It's very easy to criticize an argument in this form, so please don't take my comments below as anything else than an attempt to be constructive:

    13.
    Most of the argument hinges on here, so this is a crucial point for which there is not a lot of evidence (that I know of).

    That's not a reason to reject it beforehand, but I also think it's contentious. For example, one can argue that in a heavily patriarchal world the mother may well be the vehicle of transmission of culture, but she is likely to be forced (explicitly or implicitly) to assimilate the father's culture. Or, at least, to educate her offspring in the ways of the father's culture. For example, woman WG1, married to man MG1 of culture C1 has a daughter WG2, who marries MG2 of culture C2. Will the children of WG2 (WG3 or MG3) be educated in culture C1 or C2? Your point 13 would say C1, but it's not obvious that it should be so. It certainly won't be likely if the woman is sent to marry MG2. The matrilineal line could then perfectly change from C1 to C2 between generation 2 and 3.

    Summing up: Even if the mother is the vehicle of transmission of culture, it is not necessarily so that culture is transmitted matrilineally. Especially in a patriarchal world.

    I also have some contention about 15 (again due to the predominance of patriarchal cultures after some point in history), but let's focus here first.
  11. 14 Jun '10 08:53
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung


    1. Every human's matrileneal line comes from a single woman within a single population 200,000 years ago in Tanzania (other womens' sons contributed sperm though). [FACT based on mtDNA studies]

    Therefore,

    3. Humanity expanded from Tanzania over the last 200,000 years to all corners of the word, and in the process populations diverged from one another both in culture and biology.
    I must point out that 3., though probably true, does not follow from 1.
  12. 14 Jun '10 09:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    13. Mothers contribute more to a child's culture than fathers do under normal circumstances (Assertion based on facts such as L1 also called the "mother tongue" and the obvious fact that fathers can easily abandon children while mothers will have a much harder time).

    18. Because of 13 and 17, the mother's culture will tend to dominate in any popu ...[text shortened]... cultural influences without any mtDNA modification.

    Done. Any questions or criticisms?
    I think there are far more exceptions than Botswana.

    For a start you have overlooked cases of culture being transfered by means other than parent - child. This is actually quite common - witness the spread of European cultures worldwide, but many other examples abound. Here in South Africa, the Zulu language and culture now extends far beyond the direct decedents of the Zulu people at the time of Shaka. I could cite other examples in Zambia too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozi_language).


    Many of the mixed race marriages I know have resulted in the children showing more of the culture of the father than the mother. (My son is a case in point).
    This is even more the case when religion is involved - I have noted that more often than not, the woman takes the religion of her husband.
  13. 14 Jun '10 15:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Because of 14.
    14 is incorrect, the huge expanses of empty land only applied during the front part of prehistory, except for places that are pretty empty now.

    and i don't see the connection between 14 and 20.

    i wonder why the cavemen (and Mongols) didn't expand into Siberia?
  14. 14 Jun '10 15:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The way you use the words "fact" and "theory" show you are probably coming from a non-scientific perspective similar to the one which came up with "evolution is only a theory". You are using them technically incorrectly.

    Take a look here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
    this is not a technical forum.
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Jun '10 17:03
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    this is not a technical forum.
    This is a formal debate forum and this is a formal logical analysis for Palynka.