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Debates Forum

  1. 14 Jan '14 04:44
    While it's common for people to hold prejudices against various groups,
    it also seems common for people to make exceptions for individuals, while
    not necessarily shedding their general prejudices. I have known men who
    have fallen in love with and married women while continuing to hold general
    prejudices against their wives' nationality, race/ethnicity, or religion. I am
    *not*saying that making some individual exceptions must excuse prejudices.
    I am saying that patterns of prejudice should not be oversimplified.

    If I recall correctly, a top Nazi leader (perhaps Himmler) once complained
    that many Germans would approach him and beg for special treatment for
    their closest Jewish friends. When the Nazi lectured them on the (alleged)
    evil nature of all Jews, these Germans would nod along and say, "I agree
    with everything you said! The Jews are evil people but this one's different."
    Even Himmler once sought to spare the life of a particularly good-looking
    young Jewish man (tall, blond, blue-eyed) by asking him if he could claim
    any non-Jewish ancestors. Honest to the end, he replied that all his known
    ancestors were Jewish, whereupon Himmler reluctantly had him executed.

    As the Third Reich's Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels indulged in
    much rhetoric dehumanizing the Slavs. But the greatest romantic love
    of his life apparently was his mistress, Lida Baarova, a Czech actress.
    Indeed, Goebbels reportedly once offered to resign as the Minister of
    Propaganda and asked Hitler for permission to divorce his wife (a fanatical
    Nazi) and marry Lida Baarova. Hitler refused on the grounds that such a
    famous marriage between a German and a Slav would be a national scandal.
    I wonder how Goebbels explained his anti-Slav rhetoric to Lida Baarova.

    Even Hitler did not abhor all Jews. In particular, Hitler was very fond of a
    Jewish woman, Princess Stephanie von Hohenlohe (nee Richter in Vienna).
    Her mother was Jewish, and evidently so was her biological father
    (according to her biographer, Maria Schad). She became a princess through
    her marriage to an Austrian prince. Later, she became a close friend of
    Hitler, who addressed her as his 'dear princess' and personally gave her a
    significant NSDAP (Nazi Party) award. Unity Mitford, an anti-Semitic
    Fascist Englishwoman, was infatuated with Hitler and became jealous of
    Princess Stephanie. Unity urged Hitler to shun Stephanie because she
    was of Jewish heritage, but Hitler preferred to keep ignoring that fact.
    Hitler enjoyed Princess Stephanie's companionship, and that was more
    important than her background. Indeed, Princess Stephanie claimed that,
    on one private occasion, Hitler became somewhat physically intimate with
    her (stroking her hair and pinching her), and she seemed pleased that she
    could have aroused him to desire her as a woman. If Princess Stephanie
    could have seduced Hitler and become his mistress, then might she (like
    Esther, the Jewish queen of the Persian king Ahasuerus) have been able
    to soften Hitler's heart and help change his policies against Jewish people?

    My point is that even some fanatically prejudiced people have been able
    to make some individual exceptions.
  2. 14 Jan '14 05:37
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While it's common for people to hold prejudices against various groups,
    it also seems common for people to make exceptions for individuals, while
    not necessarily shedding their general prejudices. I have known men who
    have fallen in love with and married women while continuing to hold general
    prejudices against their wives' nationality, race/ethnicity ...[text shortened]... that even some fanatically prejudiced people have been able
    to make some individual exceptions.
    Once we can see each other as persons in bodies and tribes we are born into, that is possible.
  3. 14 Jan '14 12:54
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Hitler became somewhat physically intimate with
    her (stroking her hair and pinching her), and she seemed pleased that she
    could have aroused him to desire her as a woman. .[/b]
    Thanks for the visual.
  4. 14 Jan '14 20:57
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While it's common for people to hold prejudices against various groups,
    it also seems common for people to make exceptions for individuals, while
    not necessarily shedding their general prejudices. I have known men who
    have fallen in love with and married women while continuing to hold general
    prejudices against their wives' nationality, race/ethnicity ...[text shortened]... that even some fanatically prejudiced people have been able
    to make some individual exceptions.
    Is it also possible that people who profess purity in acceptance make exceptions toward bigotry to individuals who they don't like.
  5. 14 Jan '14 20:59
    Originally posted by JS357
    Once we can see each other as persons in bodies and tribes we are born into, that is possible.
    I wonder, if hatred or bigotry based on ideology or beliefs is better or worse than that based on race, tribe, or appearance.

    Clearly, people make individual exceptions.
  6. 14 Jan '14 21:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Is it also possible that people who profess purity in acceptance make exceptions toward bigotry to individuals who they don't like.
    In what kind of lesson could an English teacher use Normbenign's sentence
    as an example (other than to say: "Don't write like Normbenign." )?
  7. Standard member smw6869online
    Granny
    15 Jan '14 00:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While it's common for people to hold prejudices against various groups,
    it also seems common for people to make exceptions for individuals, while
    not necessarily shedding their general prejudices. I have known men who
    have fallen in love with and married women while continuing to hold general
    prejudices against their wives' nationality, race/ethnicity ...[text shortened]... that even some fanatically prejudiced people have been able
    to make some individual exceptions.
    "Hitler became somewhat physically intimate with
    her (stroking her hair and pinching her), and she seemed pleased that she
    could have aroused him to desire her as a woman.:


    Anyone else need a cigarette?



    GRANNY.
  8. 15 Jan '14 01:40
    Originally posted by smw6869
    "Hitler became somewhat physically intimate with
    her (stroking her hair and pinching her), and she seemed pleased that she
    could have aroused him to desire her as a woman.:


    Anyone else need a cigarette?



    GRANNY.
    While he was responsible for many terrible crimes, Hitler can be better
    understood if we accept that he had some normal human desires and
    needs rather than being cartoonishly stereotyped as a completely inhuman
    monster from outer space. Hitler did not grow up in a historical vacuum.

    A 1938 British intelligence (MI6) report concluded of Princess Stephanie:
    "She is frequently summoned by the Fuehrer (Hitler) who appreciates her
    intelligence and good advice. She is perhaps the only woman who can
    exercise any influence on him."

    Princess Stephanie was proud of her apparently close relationship with
    Hitler, and some prominent Britons (such as Lord Rothermere, a press
    baron with pro-Fascist sympathies) admired and envied her for it.
    While there's no evidence that she ever slept with him, I suspect that
    Princess Stephanie would not have protested if Hitler had desired it because
    that would have been an additional way she could use to influence him.

    How could a woman of Jewish heritage be proud of being close to Hitler?
    First of all, Princess Stephanie did not really consider herself Jewish
    (though Nazi racial laws did) because she was, if anything, Christian rather
    than Jewish in her religious beliefs. Also, we should keep in mind that
    she became intimate with Hitler when the Second World War in Europe
    and the Holocaust had yet to occur. Indeed, there were some German
    Jews who rationalized that Hitler's anti-Semitism was largely a tactical
    expedient intended to placate more extreme anti-Semites in the NSDAP.

    If Hitler could ignore the facts of Princess Stephanie's Jewish ancestry
    and enjoy being with her, then she also could have ignored the facts
    about his anti-Semitism and enjoyed being with him. When two persons
    become close, each tends to see only what one wishes most to see.
  9. 16 Jan '14 08:04
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While it's common for people to hold prejudices against various groups,
    it also seems common for people to make exceptions for individuals, while
    not necessarily shedding their general prejudices. I have known men who
    have fallen in love with and married women while continuing to hold general
    prejudices against their wives' nationality, race/ethnicity ...[text shortened]... that even some fanatically prejudiced people have been able
    to make some individual exceptions.
    Hmmmm. KT, are there any black people who you like at all?
  10. 17 Jan '14 19:01
    Originally posted by karnachz (asking KilgoreTrout15)
    Hmmmm. KT, are there any black people who you like at all?
    I suspect there are racist white Americans who like the black athletes
    that can help their favorite sports teams win.

    If Hikaru Nakamura (an immigrant from Japan) becomes the world champion
    while representing the USA, I suspect that some racist American chess
    players would like him too.