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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 17 Aug '13 13:23
    I appears that most on these boards agree with the role of social engineering. From my vantage point, the government should only be in the business of maintaining a civil society so that people can live in mutual respect to their neighbor. That way people are afforded the freedom to chart their own course so long as they don't harm others.

    However, it appears many here agree with government doing such things as forcibly move citizens around to achieve certain outcomes, whether or not the community welcomes it or not. It then seems to me that poverty is the issue here. People see poverty as the destruction of the civil society, thus it must be eliminated. Why not then just outlaw poverty?

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like poverty either. I just think that outlawing it in various ways actually leads to the destruction of a civil society.
  2. 17 Aug '13 13:50
    Fortunately one does not need to forcibly move citizens around to eradicate poverty.
  3. 17 Aug '13 14:22
    Originally posted by whodey
    I appears that most on these boards agree with the role of social engineering. From my vantage point, the government should only be in the business of maintaining a civil society so that people can live in mutual respect to their neighbor. That way people are afforded the freedom to chart their own course so long as they don't harm others.

    However, it ap ...[text shortened]... think that outlawing it in various ways actually leads to the destruction of a civil society.
    i dont think people were saying government should force citizens to move around. one method is to build social and private housing together in new housing estates.
    when a property developer buys land rather than them building all expensive housing for wealthy clients, they are forced to also build a quantity of low cost and rented property so the new estate has a mixture of all demographics.
    the idea is that it stops the wealthy from becoming detached from normal society and it raises the aspirations of the less wealthy.

    poverty is not something you can outlaw. its something you can strive to eradicate. having a minimum wage is the first step to making sure people have a basic standard of living. the next step is making sure people have equal access to decent housing and schools.
  4. 17 Aug '13 14:29
    Wanna see some social engineering at work?
    Here's the TOP 5 people under the United States director of the Department Of Agriculture:

    http://www.amren.com/news/2013/08/service-matters-newsletter/


    What are the odds of this being a legitimate selection of the most qualified people for such positions?

    If past history is any indicator, we better start stockpiling food away.
  5. 17 Aug '13 17:28
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Fortunately one does not need to forcibly move citizens around to eradicate poverty.
    What the government is doing is forcibly seizing land in certain neighborhoods and putting "poor folk" in them.
  6. 17 Aug '13 17:30
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    i dont think people were saying government should force citizens to move around. one method is to build social and private housing together in new housing estates.
    when a property developer buys land rather than them building all expensive housing for wealthy clients, they are forced to also build a quantity of low cost and rented property so the new ...[text shortened]... of living. the next step is making sure people have equal access to decent housing and schools.
    I have seen HUD developments evolve in the past to where the neighborhood was once nice, but then it goes down hill, people move out, and property values decline.

    Moving misery around solves nothing other than destroying neighborhoods.
  7. 17 Aug '13 17:41
    Originally posted by whodey
    What the government is doing is forcibly seizing land in certain neighborhoods and putting "poor folk" in them.
    What does your comment have to do with my observation that one does not need to move around people to eradicate poverty?
  8. 17 Aug '13 17:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I have seen HUD developments evolve in the past to where the neighborhood was once nice, but then it goes down hill, people move out, and property values decline.

    Moving misery around solves nothing other than destroying neighborhoods.
    I'e seen the same thing in my 60+ years many times, not just neighborhoods, but entire cities, and as California has proven, entire states.
    Soon to be entire countries.
    And the band played on.
  9. 17 Aug '13 18:06
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What does your comment have to do with my observation that one does not need to move around people to eradicate poverty?
    Where exactly has poverty been eradicated?

    You can eradicate poverty about as well as you can eradicate CO2.
  10. 17 Aug '13 18:52
    Originally posted by whodey
    I have seen HUD developments evolve in the past to where the neighborhood was once nice, but then it goes down hill, people move out, and property values decline.

    Moving misery around solves nothing other than destroying neighborhoods.
    in america poor people bring misery and destroy neighborhoods??? whats up with your poor? we have bad elements in what we call sink estates but the majority of poor people are good people with dignity. you speak of your poor like they are animals.

    in the uk we have a system where the government rented property in nice areas works on a trust system. the people living there have to be good citizens or they will be asked to leave. this encourages people to maintain the property and respect their neighbors. this doesnt happen on all estates (due to the selling of social houses in the 80's and lack of investment after) but the ones it does happen works very well.
    the village i live in is generally very expensive, upper middle-class. it also have a good pool of social housing. the town is very desirable with excellent schools and facilities the people in the social housing behave no differently to all the rich people in the big houses. the children mix at school, the adults mix socially, it works brilliantly. the wealthy do not all jump ship because they have to speak to some poor people.

    maybe the problem you have in america is snobbery.
  11. 17 Aug '13 18:55
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    I'e seen the same thing in my 60+ years many times, not just neighborhoods, but entire cities, and as California has proven, entire states.
    Soon to be entire countries.
    And the band played on.
    then maybe its time to change the beat. if your country is failing with its right wing politics why not follow the examples of the northern european countries. i bet you would rather fail then adopt a socialist approach, even if it has worked in europe.
  12. 17 Aug '13 19:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    Where exactly has poverty been eradicated?

    You can eradicate poverty about as well as you can eradicate CO2.
    There are about a dozen or so societies where poverty has been nigh-eradicated. You know them - the places where access to housing, health care, education, clean drinking water and sufficient food are guaranteed. The recipe for achieving this is simple - one just guarantees those things by mandate.
  13. 17 Aug '13 19:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    then maybe its time to change the beat. if your country is failing with its right wing politics why not follow the examples of the northern european countries. i bet you would rather fail then adopt a socialist approach, even if it has worked in europe.
    You don't have a clue as to what I was referring to, do you?

    Maybe this will help you figure things out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmQ49DztFC4&list=PL588D7D5968A3E40D
  14. 17 Aug '13 19:31
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    You don't have a clue as to what I was referring to, do you?

    Maybe this will help you figure things out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmQ49DztFC4&list=PL588D7D5968A3E40D
    im even more confused now. social housing issues............to rape in norway. do you have a dissociative disorder or something?
  15. 17 Aug '13 19:39
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    im even more confused now. social housing issues............to rape in norway. do you have a dissociative disorder or something?
    No, but you seem to be in a state of denial.