Salvation Through Works

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
But we are told (eye roll) that true Christians never, EVER sin. Not once. The person telling us that claims he is utterly and completely sinless. Spotless. Perfect.

Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Answer: because Jesus knew we would sin.

Originally posted by @rajk999
The questions are dumb because Jesus did not provide answers for them.

You are trying to discredit the teachings of Christ . And Christians are supposed to be following Christ.

You are a failed Christian lacking in the true Spirit of Christ.

By calling sincere questions about your doctrine "dumb" and dodging giving us the Gospel and instead condemning us to hell, you have sinned. And you call yourself sinless. That makes you a liar. And I don't use that word lightly. But it's a fact. Your doctrine is a lie until you prove otherwise, and you refuse to. The bible condemns your actions outright. As you say, "that's not a good position for you to be in." You're a fraud. Pure and simple.

You belong in the ranks of Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar.

edit: I didn't enjoy saying all that and I think that's the harshest thing I've ever said to a person who claims to be a fellow believer. I should at least end this on a positive note. One major difference between us is you seem to get some twisted satisfaction out of calling others hellbound goats. But as far as my doctrine is concerned, and you truly are a believer--despite our differences, we will be seeing each other in heaven, hugging and laughing about these secondary differences in doctrine. The primary, overriding, tenet of my (Protestant) belief is best summed up in John 3:16 but there are other supporting verses. With that verse established as a truth--it washes away all our other differences. The belief in the truth of this or that doctrine is not what saves us. We're both saved.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
But we are told (eye roll) that true Christians never, EVER sin. Not once. The person telling us that claims he is utterly and completely sinless. Spotless. Perfect.

Jesus told us He came here to save the lost, if your perfect, then Jesus didn't come to
save you, just the lost. I supposed all of those people in scripture according to that
doctrine of being perfect must be going to Hell, like Peter, He denied Christ, he also
later caused people to stumble over who he was eating with. Paul said that when he did
good that sin was in him, and he was struggling with it, if he wasn't perfect and slipped
once he is in Hell now too. Think about the John, I can only imagine the Apostle John
who Jesus loved should have been stoned for saying in 1 John


8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Answer: because Jesus knew we would sin.

Great Question! I wish I had thought of that!!!!

Is Hitler in Heaven?

Surely he did some good works along the way? Despite his evil.

This is why the 'works for salvation' argument fails.

What is the scale?

Originally posted by @rajk999
Imagine Christians have to ask what good works they need go do and how much. You are a lost soul

I'm asking you to give details on the doctrine you have been preaching. You know, the
Lord said we should be ready to give an account of the hope, so tell me about this
doctrine that if you do works to be saved! How many are required, define what is an
acceptable good work, I'd hate to be doing what I thought was a good work and only to
my dismay discover it wasn't on the approved list of what is called a good work.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Great Question! I wish I had thought of that!!!!

Thank you.

Not only does Jesus advise us to ask for forgiveness for the sins we've committed, but to also forgive the one's who have sinned against us.

Everybody's sinning!!!

We TRY to do good works, because we want to, not because we have to.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Thank you.

Not only does Jesus advise us to ask for forgiveness for the sins we've committed, but to also forgive the one's who have sinned against us.

Everybody's sinning!!!

We TRY to do good works, because we want to, not because we have to.

No one I know says no to good works, outside of those who accuse others of not doing
them without telling us what is a good work, how many are required, and so on. 🙂

Originally posted by @rajk999
No. JESUS SAID GOOD WORKS ARE REQUIRED.
How many?
You will have to ask him that.

How many? Are these guys serious?
It's all one big work called life

Remember the verses where Peter came to Jesus and asked how many times we are supposed to forgive a brother (do a good deed, in the context of this discussion). Jesus--seemingly put off by the absurdity of the question, responded with the 70 times 7... obviously meaning--just do it all the time and what are you doing, counting? That's ridiculous.

It is a ridiculous question, which makes my OP question ridiculous. And my OP is ridiculous, but only from my doctrine's viewpoint. If you're saved by faith, then what business do you have trying to create a big pile of works, and counting them? However... Peter's question isn't ridiculous if you believe you are saved by performing works. If performing works--enough works--is what you have to do to go to heaven, then you're damn right you'd be counting them up. You'd be tallying them up each week, going over the list twice to make sure you didn't miss any.

And this enough works business is crucial here. We have already established--through broken, hostile communications--2 things:

1. Doing zero works, or just a few works, is going to cancel what salvation you may have been granted through faith.
2. Constantly doing good works is impossible.

If a (regular, hellbound) Christian does 2 good works in a year. That is clearly not going to cut it. Because of this fact, it really does assign a number to it. This isn't some kind of joke or math trick. It's fact. It's logic. It's low-level deductive reasoning. Peter was spot on to ask the question, IF your doctrine is true. Jesus ostensibly laughed, then rebuked him for it. This convinces me further that salvation by faith alone is what justifies us.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Remember the verses where Peter came to Jesus and asked how many times we are supposed to forgive a brother (do a good deed, in the context of this discussion). Jesus--seemingly put off by the absurdity of the question, responded with the 70 times 7... obviously meaning--just do it all the time and what are you doing, counting? That's ridiculous.

It ...[text shortened]... buked him for it. This convinces me further that salvation by faith alone is what justifies us.

Keeping telling yourself that faith without works is alive. Separate the two and you serve Satan.

Originally posted by @eladar
Keeping telling yourself that faith without works is alive. Separate the two and you serve Satan.

You're twisting it. Go back and read what I've said. I've already acknowledged the combination of both.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Remember the verses where Peter came to Jesus and asked how many times we are supposed to forgive a brother (do a good deed, in the context of this discussion). Jesus--seemingly put off by the absurdity of the question, responded with the 70 times 7... obviously meaning--just do it all the time and what are you doing, counting? That's ridiculous.

It ...[text shortened]... buked him for it. This convinces me further that salvation by faith alone is what justifies us.

We are justified not by our works, but by grace through faith in Christ, we cannot even
take credit for that it is a gift of God towards us. Our efforts do not amount to anything in
our justification it is all God, so that we may do His works that He has prepared for us to
do as we follow God's lead walking in God's Spirit, without which we do not belong to
God. So its get right with God through Jesus Christ, then go on to do good works, NOT
do good works to be justified before God. We cannot obligate God to accept us, why
insult the gift of God by suggesting it isn't enough for our salvation? Why and how would
we ever think we could do a work acceptable to God without God within us too, walking
without God's Spirit only means our minds are set on the flesh.


Ephesians 2: 8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the
gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should
walk in them.

Romans 8: 1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of
the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God
has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in
the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the
righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the
flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds
on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the
things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the
Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does
not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Man is in three parts. spirit and soul and body.

" And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 5:23)

The salvation of the human spirit is in regeneration. That is to be born again.

The salvation of the human soul is in transformation. This is a long process throughout a Christian's whole life.

The salvation of the body is in transfiguration. That is also called "the redemption of our body." It will be instantaneous - "in the twinkling of an eye".

Christians who do not have this realization often get things mixed up. They may go everywhere in the Bible to find the word "save" or "saved" or "salvation" and not understand what is being referred to concerning the three parts of man.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Answer: because Jesus knew we would sin.

Good point.