Salvation Through Works

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
But we are told (eye roll) that true Christians never, EVER sin. Not once. The person telling us that claims he is utterly and completely sinless. Spotless. Perfect.

The person telling us that claims he is utterly and completely sinless. Spotless. Perfect.

I've never seen anyone make this claim, but I very well might have missed it. Who was it? Please post a link to the post.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Is Hitler in Heaven?

Surely he did some good works along the way? Despite his evil.

This is why the 'works for salvation' argument fails.

What is the scale?

Why do you need a scale?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]The person telling us that claims he is utterly and completely sinless. Spotless. Perfect.

I've never seen anyone make this claim, but I very well might have missed it. Who was it? Please post a link to the post.[/b]

The man is a compulsive liar .. let him continue to lie... .. all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8 KJV)

Originally posted by @rajk999
The man is a compulsive liar .. let him continue to lie... .. all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8 KJV)

Well, maybe someone did make that claim. We'll see if he has anything.

Be that as it may, his arguments are often specious.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Answer: because Jesus knew we would sin.

The reason is that forgiveness for its own sake is not God's goal. His goal is that the saved be conformed to the image of Christ.

For the soul to be transformed in this way requires the saved to learn to forgive and forget just as God has done with them.

It puzzles me that some cannot see this, To conform us to the image of Christ is a DESTINATION of redemption. When you make redemption and end in itself you may have a skewed understanding. You may see every exhortation in the Bible to be about SAVED verses LOST.

There is SAVED ... AND in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ as God's purpose.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

Many things must take place in the SOUL in order for a woman or man to be conformed to the image of the Son. More must take place than simply he or she be forgiven.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Answer: because Jesus knew we would sin.

Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Jesus didn't say why. It's interesting that so many place their speculation as to why Jesus said or did something above that of what Jesus explicitly stated. Why do you believe that it is sound to do so?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]Then why did Jesus include asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer when we sin?

Jesus didn't say why. It's interesting that so many place their speculation as to why Jesus said or did something above that of what Jesus explicitly stated. Why do you believe that it is sound to do so?[/b]

So the good tree example you used, your stating that if you repent and sin, that means
you didn't repent, are those your speculation, or did Jesus say those things too?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
So the good tree example you used, your stating that if you repent and sin, that means
you didn't repent, are those your speculation, or did Jesus say those things too?

If you have a point to make, please plainly state it.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
If you have a point to make, please plainly state it.

You are taking verses and inserting points not clearly stated within the text. While it is
true sin will lead to death, we either love sin or God, this doctrine of not being able to go
to God for the forgiveness of sin is your doctrine. Even being shown scripture that we can
ask God for forgiveness, that Jesus tells us to forgive as we are forgiven, and other
examples of people stumbling in their walk, you hang on to this impossible doctrine of
not sinning once you repent once. Good fruit is required, yes, and following God's Spirit
will produce good fruit. Jesus came to save the lost, He can and will complete the work
He started in us. The longer I walk with the Lord, the more things in my life I know I need
to change, your doctrine, as soon as some sin enters the picture the grace of God is
gone.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
You are taking verses and inserting points not clearly stated within the text. While it is
true sin will lead to death, we either love sin or God, this doctrine of not being able to go
to God for the forgiveness of sin is your doctrine. Even being shown scripture that we can
ask God for forgiveness, that Jesus tells us to forgive as we are forgiven, and ...[text shortened]... eed
to change, your doctrine, as soon as some sin enters the picture the grace of God is
gone.

No idea what this has to do with with chaney speculating as to why "Jesus include[d] asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer"

Be that as it may, you seem to have yet to have come to grips with Luke 13:23-28. Please reread my posts regarding that passage in the "If OSAS is in the Bible" thread.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
No idea what this has to do with with chaney speculating as to why "Jesus include[d] asking God for forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer"

Be that as it may, you seem to have yet to have come to grips with Luke 13:23-28. Please reread my posts regarding that passage in the "If OSAS is in the Bible" thread.

If we have to forgive our sins/debts as we have been forgiven, then that is an ongoing
process. New debts and sins show up against us and done by us, Jesus tells us that we
are forgive. You don't seem to hold that view with your only get one chance to repent! You
do recall Jesus' answer to Peter when He asked, how many times should I forgive others
who ask seven? Or do you also forget that God's mercies are renewed all the time they
are not as ridged as you are portraying them.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
If we have to forgive our sins/debts as we have been forgiven, then that is an ongoing
process. New debts and sins show up against us and done by us, Jesus tells us that we
are forgive. You don't seem to hold that view with your only get one chance to repent! You
do recall Jesus' answer to Peter when He asked, how many times should I forgive others
who ...[text shortened]... that God's mercies are renewed all the time they
are not as ridged as you are portraying them.

Seriously KellyJay. I fully understand that you believe in a different gospel from the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

From what I can tell, because of this you have been rendered incapable of "hearing" what Jesus clearly and explicitly states in Luke 13:23-28 and elsewhere. Jesus said what He said. You just don't like it since it conflicts with the gospel you believe in.

Originally posted by @rajk999
The man is a compulsive liar .. let him continue to lie... .. all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8 KJV)

I don't need to dig up your quote. You have said that true followers of Christ never sin. You do consider yourself a true follower of Christ. Right? Well there you go. You claim to live a sinless life.

The stickler is, you freely sin when you come here and accuse and judge others. Like you did above. You called me a liar. I didn't lie. You just sinned.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Seriously KellyJay. I fully understand that you believe in a different gospel from the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

From what I can tell, because of this you have been rendered incapable of "hearing" what Jesus clearly and explicitly states in Luke 13:23-28 and elsewhere. Jesus said what He said. You just don't like it since it conflicts with the gospel you believe in.

God will sort it out, of that I think we both agree.