The Role of the Unrepentant Skeptic

Tom Wolsey View Profile

Spirituality

06 May '17 00:29

KellyJay
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06 May '17 15:103 edits
Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
I am quite clear. But the point (again, this is the 4th time) was not to discuss predestination vs. free will. I simply asked what purpose God has in creating beings that He foreknows are going to end up condemned? Is it really that difficult? Seriously?

And I just re-read every single post of yours in the entire thread, and I do not see where you ...[text shortened]... nother thread, that's fine, but why bring it up in this thread and cross-contaminate everything?
I'm telling you from experience with some here, it does not matter what you say, it does
not matter what you mean, nothing that comes from you matters. What will matter to them
is going to be what they think about you, they can accuse you of some of the most horrible
things that can be said and justify themselves due to their twisted self-importance. You
will be better off just making your points and ignore them, or you will be defending yourself
from things that have nothing to do with you, they are not interested in you, or your real
thoughts, and purposes.

Don't worry if you ignore them or engage them, they will still seek you out and attack you,
because again its all about them.
FMF
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06 May '17 15:17
Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm telling you from experience with some here, it does not matter what you say, it does not matter what you mean, nothing that comes from you matters. What will matter to them is going to be what they think about you, they can accuse you of some of the most horrible things that can be said and justify themselves due to their twisted self-importance. You will be better off just making your points and ignore them, or you will be defending yourself from things that have nothing to do with you, they are not interested in you, or your real thoughts, and purposes. Don't worry if you ignore them or engage them, they will still seek you out and attack you, because again its all about them.

And so have it, KellyJay's manifesto for this debate and discussion message board.
apathist
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06 May '17 15:23
Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm telling you from experience with some here, it does not matter what you say, ....
Has it occurred to you, be quiet? It is when you push that you meet resistance. Other than nature, there are no gods in this world.
KellyJay
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06 May '17 15:34
Originally posted by apathist
Has it occurred to you, be quiet? It is when you push that you meet resistance. Other than nature, there are no gods in this world.
Has it occurred to you to be quiet? I don't mind resistance or debate, both can be done
with respect without trying to insult as you and they do.
divegeester
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06 May '17 15:39
Originally posted by Suzianne
You know that you have gargantuan balls to talk about rudeness after you relentlessly rudely harassed GB right off this site.

And you're the one who couldn't even figure out that he wasn't promoting "eternal torment" in his first post back. He holds the same side you do on the issue and yet you couldn't resist attacking him, making him defend his suppos ...[text shortened]... lly take the time to understand what he's saying. And yes, rude is certainly the word for that.
GB did not leave the site because of me, he left because he fell ill. You know this but your intense dislike of me overcomes you and you lie in order to defame me.

The rest of your post is worthless piffle.
divegeester
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06 May '17 15:42
Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm telling you from experience with some here, it does not matter what you say, it does
not matter what you mean, nothing that comes from you matters. What will matter to them
is going to be what they think about you, they can accuse you of some of the most horrible
things that can be said and justify themselves due to their twisted self-importance. You ...[text shortened]... or engage them, they will still seek you out and attack you,
because again its all about them.
You ignore several of your detractors here lack the ability to intelligently engage with them. You started ignoring FMF and myself when you were cornered over defending the JWs of the right to let their children die or the sake of the parents religious beliefs. Your position was indefensible, and still is.
FMF
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07 May '17 04:04
Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
I simply asked what purpose God has in creating beings that He foreknows are going to end up condemned? Is it really that difficult? Seriously?
The actual consequence of being "condemned" is crucial to addressing your question. Clearly, the "purpose" would not be the same for [1] letting created beings cease to exist at the end of their lives for having not done what was necessary, on one hand, and [2] torturing created beings and not allowing them to cease to exist (as revenge for having not done what was necessary) on the other hand.

We cannot possibly discuss there being a single "purpose" for two such hugely different things at the same time.

So what is the nature of the "condemnation" and its consequences as intended by your OP?
Tom Wolsey
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07 May '17 04:10
Originally posted by KellyJay
Don't worry if you ignore them or engage them, they will still seek you out and attack you, because again its all about them.

Yes, after just a few posts, I recalled agent smith, upon Neo's return to the matrix. Smith and all his duplicates... the rain... no sign of life. Just a bunch of Smiths. Smith turns to him and says, "Like what I've done with the place?"

Yeah, that's the vibe. No big deal. Comes with the territory.
KellyJay
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07 May '17 11:414 edits
Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
You can see here they will accuse me of wanting/allowing children to die, because I didn't
agree with a point they did completely. I have denied that to them, and even told them I
have lost a child, and that means nothing to them, they spew this still even years after that
conversation over a JW doctrine I disagree with too. So with some here they will accuse
any of wicked things they can come up, and they will do it if you talk with them, and if you do
not.
FMF
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07 May '17 12:501 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay
You can see here they will accuse me of wanting/allowing children to die, because I didn't agree with a point they did completely.
You defended the right of Christian parents to let their children die [for want of medical treatment that would save them] if the reasons were a matter of religious faith/conscience.

And you disagreed with society (through the agencies of its elected government) having the right to intervene to protect the children in its midst from any dangers posed to them by such parental zealotry.

No one ever accused you of wanting children to die; your point was essentially an anti-government one, but it's upshot was that you could not, for your own ideological reasons, bring yourself to condemn what amounts to child sacrifice by religious extremists ~ a preventable death of a child allowed in order to please/not to anger a god figure.
FMF
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07 May '17 12:55
Originally posted by KellyJay
I have denied that to them, and even told them I have lost a child, and that means nothing to them....
The fact that you have lost a child has absolutely nothing to do with your opposition to government having the right, when necessary, to intervene in order to protect children from their parents, whether it be because of abuse, neglect, or willful endangerment. You mentioning that you had lost a child might have deflected me from this basic ideological point that was being discussed, but it didn't.
divegeester
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07 May '17 13:003 edits
Originally posted by KellyJay
You can see here they will accuse me of wanting/allowing children to die, because I didn't
agree with a point they did completely. I have denied that to them, and even told them I
have lost a child, and that means nothing to them, they spew this still even years after that
conversation over a JW doctrine I disagree with too. So with some here they will a ...[text shortened]... f wicked things they can come up, and they will do it if you talk with them, and if you do
not.
Your position in that debate was that the JW parents (a real case to which I provided a link) should have been allowed to let their child die on religious grounds. It was and is an indefensible postion.

The discussion had nothing to do with any loss you have had. Bringing your own loss up as a reason not to discuss a topic and then slander those people debating with you are being uncaring is poor form KellyJay.
FMF
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07 May '17 13:031 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay
I have denied that to them, and even told them I have lost a child, and that means nothing to them, they spew this still even years after that conversation over a JW doctrine I disagree with too.
The fact that you have lost a child does not mean nothing to me and you cannot find any post anywhere on this web site that suggests any such thing.

Yes, you disagree with JW doctrine about the meaning of Acts 15:19-21, so does - I think - pretty much every Christian on earth who is not a JW.

That was not the issue, as you well know. Your own child's death was not the issue either, as you well know.

The issue was that you defended their right to apply their religious beliefs to their families even if it might result in the death of children.
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07 May '17 13:38
Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
This one gets me thinking. For the sake of argument, let's say the bible is absolutely correct, at least on the significant things related to doctrine.

God is omniscient, and knows everything that has or will come to pass. This means that in the case of the skeptic that dies in a state of unbelief and unrepentance -- God pre-ordained his or her life ...[text shortened]... have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all." (replace loved with lived)

Thoughts?
If the great grandparent did not exist, you would not exist. Ripping up the weed would also uproot wheat.
karoly aczel
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07 May '17 23:03
Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
No motivation. No agenda. Truly wanting to share insights as to what the purpose is. One of the reasons many reject the idea that God pre-ordains hell as a destination for someone is because it seems so cruel. So, they dress up the dilemma with a more comfortable scenario. "It was that person's choice." They literally claim that people choose hell. ...[text shortened]... said, nah, I won't create that person. Be He did anyway so the question I often ponder is, why?
if you find logical inconsistencies with your belief system then perhaps there is something not right about it.

then again you might say he created them so that we could learn