Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19291
    06 Mar '19 06:00
    Some heavy colonialism in Africa, it seems.

    Ugandan government is now at risk of losing its main state assets to China over unpaid huge increasing loans from Chinese government.

    But according to Ugandan government, the growing debt is sustainable, and the country is not at risk of losing state assets to China, the country’s finance minister, Matia Kasaija.

    African Stand reported in December last year that Kenyan government risks losing the lucrative Mombasa port to China if the country fail to repay huge loans advanced by Chinese lenders, but both Chinese and Kenyan officials have dismissed that the port’s ownership is at risk.

    Others think Chinese government are in some ways gangsters, taking over mines all over Africa, sending thousands of Chinese workers, destroy environment, bring the minerals such as copper, sink, gold, silver, diamonds etc home, and make deals with corrupt politicians to plunder the countries.

    “The case is one of the examples of China’s ambitious use of loans and aid to gain influence around the world and of its willingness to play hardball to collect,” says the New York Times in December 12, 2017.

    At a time in Somalia when local fishermen are struggling to compete with foreign vessels that are depleting fishing stocks, the government has granted 31 fishing licenses to China.


    https://www.africanstand.com/news/africa/east-africa/china-to-take-over-ugandas-main-assets-over-unpaid-rising-huge-debt/
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    06 Mar '19 08:56
    @philokalia said
    Some heavy colonialism in Africa, it seems.

    [quote] Ugandan government is now at risk of losing its main state assets to China over unpaid huge increasing loans from Chinese government.

    But according to Ugandan government, the growing debt is sustainable, and the country is not at risk of losing state assets to China, the country’s finance minister, Matia Kasaija.
    ...[text shortened]... and.com/news/africa/east-africa/china-to-take-over-ugandas-main-assets-over-unpaid-rising-huge-debt/
    Chinese are smart obviously.

    Maybe if African debt were wiped out this would not have arisen?
  3. Joined
    20 Oct '16
    Moves
    8799
    06 Mar '19 09:50
    When taking a loan, one agrees to certain conditions and sometimes puts up security as a way of reducing the interest rate that is charged.

    A creditor is not doing you a favour. It is a financial arrangement.

    If you do not take sufficient measures to amortize your loan, a creditor has the right to seize the assets that you put up as security, as was agreed when you took the loan.

    It's not colonialism. If the Ugandan government does not want its assets confiscated, it should A) manage its finances better (it's probably extremely corrupt) and B) not take loans that have such conditions attached.

    It's not China's fault that their debtors are incompetent. Should they just accept that their money has been lost (probably due to graft)?
  4. Joined
    18 Jan '07
    Moves
    7284
    06 Mar '19 09:551 edit
    @wolfgang59 said
    Chinese are smart obviously.

    Maybe if African debt were wiped out this would not have arisen?
    "Smart" is not the first word I'd have used.

    This would probably not have happened if African (and other) countries had had a regulated transition into democracy, rather than insisting on crashing straight from colonialism into self-rule dictatorships.
    The desire for immediate freedom was perfectly understandable, but it was obvious even then that the good use of freedom has to be learned. After all, it's not as if Europe went from "l'état, ç'est moi" to "one man, one vote" in a single decade and without bloodshed. The Cold War didn't help, of course, and China is evidently still pursuing Cold War goals (or worse) by Cold War methods.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    06 Mar '19 10:54
  6. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Mar '19 20:15
    @philokalia said
    Some heavy colonialism in Africa, it seems.

    [quote] Ugandan government is now at risk of losing its main state assets to China over unpaid huge increasing loans from Chinese government.

    But according to Ugandan government, the growing debt is sustainable, and the country is not at risk of losing state assets to China, the country’s finance minister, Matia Kasaija.
    ...[text shortened]... and.com/news/africa/east-africa/china-to-take-over-ugandas-main-assets-over-unpaid-rising-huge-debt/
    Some racists (though I don't claim that Philokalia has done so here) like to claim
    that what China's doing in Africa is morally worse than what Europeans ever did.

    It's absurd to make any comparison between China's economic policies (which includes aid)
    in Africa with the historical record of European colonialism in Africa, which includes
    military conquest, mass enslavement, and genocide.
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Mar '19 20:22
    Westerners should not jump to the ignorant conclusion that every ethnic Chinese person
    in Africa has been sent there by the government of the People's Republic of China.

    First of all, there are ethnic Chinese communities in Africa that were established long
    before the People's Republic of China even existed. Second, some ethnic Chinese
    in Africa prefer to identify more with Taiwan than with the People's Republic of China.

    Now regarding Chinese from the People's Republic of China who have settled in Africa,
    many have gone there on their own initiative, as entrepreneurs hoping for more
    opportunities than they can find in China. China's government does not strictly
    control and regulate what every Chinese expat does in Africa. Given that there are
    an estimated one million Chinese in Africa, it's practically inevitable that some of
    them will do some bad things, but they don't represent every Chinese in Africa.
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Mar '19 20:58
    @ashiitaka said
    When taking a loan, one agrees to certain conditions and sometimes puts up security as a way of reducing the interest rate that is charged.

    A creditor is not doing you a favour. It is a financial arrangement.

    If you do not take sufficient measures to amortize your loan, a creditor has the right to seize the assets that you put up as security, as was agreed when ...[text shortened]... ors are incompetent. Should they just accept that their money has been lost (probably due to graft)?
    https://www.transparency.org/country/UGA

    Uganda's ranked 149th out of 180 countries in corruption.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52851
    07 Mar '19 21:561 edit
    @Duchess64
    Looks like a worthwhile site. I signed up. It seems a bit hard to navigate though. Just been there 5 minutes so will take time. I would like to see the whole list who is bottom, who is best, where is the US on that list and if it has peaked since the advent of Trump.
    Figured out how to go to a single country, the country/USA showing US dropped out of the top 20, now at 22 since Trump. Surprised it is not lower than that. I think the more of his corruption that becomes public, the lower that number will go.
  10. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19291
    08 Mar '19 02:37
    @duchess64 said
    Some racists (though I don't claim that Philokalia has done so here) like to claim
    that what China's doing in Africa is morally worse than what Europeans ever did.

    It's absurd to make any comparison between China's economic policies (which includes aid)
    in Africa with the historical record of European colonialism in Africa, which includes
    military conquest, mass enslavement, and genocide.
    Economically exploiting poorer people is not the same as outright colonialsim, sure. It's not worse. But it is certainly happening, and we can expect it to continue unabated.

    It's worth noting that Africans practiced military conquest, mass enslavement, and genocide against one another regularly.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    08 Mar '19 04:11
    @philokalia said
    Economically exploiting poorer people is not the same as outright colonialsim, sure. It's not worse. But it is certainly happening, and we can expect it to continue unabated.

    It's worth noting that Africans practiced military conquest, mass enslavement, and genocide against one another regularly.
    Some extremely dishonest white racists (like Philokalia) attempt to excuse Christian
    Europeans' brutal record of conquest, enslavement, and genocide in Africa by
    absurdly arguing that Chinese investment in Africa is about, if not more, evil.

    I note that China strongly supported black national liberation movements in Africa
    when almost all Western countries were still siding with apartheid South Africa.
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    08 Mar '19 05:04
    @sonhouse said
    @Duchess64
    Looks like a worthwhile site. I signed up. It seems a bit hard to navigate though. Just been there 5 minutes so will take time. I would like to see the whole list who is bottom, who is best, where is the US on that list and if it has peaked since the advent of Trump.
    Figured out how to go to a single country, the country/USA showing US dropped out of the top 20 ...[text shortened]... er than that. I think the more of his corruption that becomes public, the lower that number will go.
    Denmark just pips NZ for number 1 spot.
    I think we used to be number 1.
  13. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19291
    08 Mar '19 06:37
    @duchess64 said
    Some extremely dishonest white racists (like Philokalia) attempt to excuse Christian
    Europeans' brutal record of conquest, enslavement, and genocide in Africa by
    absurdly arguing that Chinese investment in Africa is about, if not more, evil.

    I note that China strongly supported black national liberation movements in Africa
    when almost all Western countries were still siding with apartheid South Africa.
    Right, they were supporting it in the sense that it was geopolitically expedient for them to support any anti-American sentiment & international Communism.
  14. Standard memberLundos
    Back to basics
    About
    Joined
    11 Dec '04
    Moves
    68866
    08 Mar '19 08:10
    @wolfgang59 said
    Denmark just pips NZ for number 1 spot.
    I think we used to be number 1.
    Denmark #1. Denmark #1.

    Make America as Great as Denmark are the new red caps.

    We have our corruption issues here too. Though, they are small potatoes compared to the rest of the world (unless you include the banks).

    Regarding the OP this is nothing new. The battle for/conquest of African resources have been going on for a long, long time. I'm guessing for the Africans it doesn't really matter who's exploiting them. Whether it's the Europeans (incl. Russia), the US or China, in the end it's all the same for the used part.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52851
    08 Mar '19 14:28
    @Philokalia
    China's ranking comes in at 87 out of 180 so they are not as clean as D64 likes to tout.
Back to Top