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  1. 31 Aug '17 22:03
    In March 2017, I created this thread: "Dress Code: How It's Different for Girls".
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/debates/dress-code-how-different-its-for-girls.172178

    https://www.yahoo.com/style/california-student-told-not-wearing-bra-makes-people-assume-bad-things-192342087.html

    "California student told that not wearing a bra makes 'people assume bad things'"

    "Altuna had gone most of the day in her black bodysuit and baggy jeans
    without comment from teachers or the security guards who typically watch
    for dress code violations, she tells Yahoo Style. But when she went to
    the school office to get a paper signed, an assistant vice principal pulled
    her aside and told her to put on a jacket.

    “She said that my shirt was low cut; then she asked if I was wearing a bra,”
    Altuna says. “She went on to say that because I wasn’t wearing a bra,
    she didn’t want people to think anything bad of me or talk inappropriately
    or have anything bad to say.”

    The Beaumont High School dress code does not specify anything about bras,
    but says this about shirts: “Tops must cover all parts of undergarments
    and shall not be low cut or revealing.” Altuna said she didn’t feel she
    needed a bra with her top, and if she’d worn one, she would have been
    dress-coded because it would have shown. While she does not think her
    outfit was inappropriate, she said what happened to her is part of a pattern.

    “This year it just seems like they’re really out for blood, looking for anything,”
    Altuna says. It would be one thing if they were dress coding boys and
    girls equally, but she notes that girls have been the biggest targets,
    while the boys’ violations, such as ripped jeans, are overlooked.

    Another student at Altuna’s school also took to Twitter to complain that girls were
    being disciplined for their outfits while boys who made sexual comments about them were not."

    "The notion that wearing a bra or covering up the body is necessary for
    a girl’s protection is a faulty one, setting society up to blame the victims
    of sexual assault, according to experts.

    “At a global scale the rate of violence against women is that one in three girls
    have experienced violence, whether that be domestic violence or sexual assault,”
    Laura Palumbo, communications director for the National Sexual Violence
    Resource Center, told Yahoo Style in an interview last week.
    “That is something that is clearly happening at a scale across cultures
    and countries and suggests that it is much more of a complex issue
    than how a woman dresses and is actually rooted in the very ideas of
    traditional masculinity and subjugation of women.”"
  2. 31 Aug '17 23:15
    Domestic violence is physically weak being dominated by physically strong. If the woman was stronger she would be beating up the man.
  3. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    31 Aug '17 23:34
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Domestic violence is physically weak being dominated by physically strong. If the woman was stronger she would be beating up the man.
    Thanks for your idiotic opinion. Now, perhaps, you'd like to explain what this has to do with the OP.
  4. 01 Sep '17 01:26
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marathon-mother-outfit-raped-facebook-post-joggers-laurah-lukin-cincinnati-a7919661.html

    "Marathon-running mother told her outfit is 'why joggers get raped'"

    "A US college professor and mother was told her running outfit is the reason joggers get raped
    by strangers posting on Facebook."

    (This poorly written sentence implies that the rapists are 'strangers posting on Facebook'.)

    "Event organisers shared a picture of Dr Laurah Lukin running a half marathon in Ohio"
    "The day after the race a stranger replied to a message complimenting Dr Lukin's appearance,
    saying: “That’s because she doesn’t have any damn clothes on and she’s running for her life…
    No wonder joggers get raped.”

    "The professor at the University of Cincinnati felt “strongly that this behaviour cannot go unaddressed”
    ...
    "“It is not my responsibility to choose a race outfit or workout apparel to deter the temptation
    of men. The length of my shorts is not an indication of interest, invitation or consent.”

    She said also felt it was important to write about how her initial reaction was to justify her clothes.
    “Instantly, my brain started rationalising and justifying my race outfit. Then I paused.
    I was immediately disappointed that my gut reaction to this man’s horrific comments was
    to defend my wardrobe choice.”

    The spinning coach and professor of medical education was quick to point out that
    "there were photos from the race of shirtless men, men in short shorts, men in tight shorts;
    yet he did not feel motivated to comment on their potential for inviting sexual assault.""
    ...
    "She said: “Responses to my blog have varied widely. Some people think the comments on my
    race photo were trivial and not worthy of attention. Some defended the dark ideas behind those comments.”

    The man who left the original comments has defended himself. She said: “He continues to refer
    to me online as a frail, oversensitive ‘snowflake’ and mock the seriousness of rape culture.”"

    The man who accused Laurah Lukin of dressing to invite her rape sounds like he would
    feel at home with the many sexist trolls and rape apologists here.
  5. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    01 Sep '17 01:29
    It's worse for women in other countries than here in the US. China, for example:

    Rape in China is not widely discussed in the media. Luo Tsun-yin, a social psychologist at Shih Hsin University in Taiwan, asserts that fewer than one in 10 rape cases in China are reported.[2][4]

    The 2013 Multi-country Study on Men and Domestic Violence asked men in China if they had ever coerced a female partner into having sex (including alcohol facilitated rape). 22.2% said yes. 9.3% had done so in the past year. 19.4% raped their partner. 55% of the men who had raped had done so more than once and 9% had have so on four or more partners. 86% cited sexual entitlement as their motive (the highest percentage in the study) and 57% answered that they raped out of boredom. 72.4% experienced no legal consequences. 1.7% had raped another man. 25.1% who had raped reported first doing so as a teenager. 2.2% admitted to having committed gang rape.[5]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_China
  6. 01 Sep '17 02:23
    Originally posted by @sleepyguy
    It's worse for women in other countries than here in the US. China, for example:

    Rape in China is not widely discussed in the media. Luo Tsun-yin, a social psychologist at Shih Hsin University in Taiwan, asserts that fewer than one in 10 rape cases in China are reported.[2][4]

    The 2013 Multi-country Study on Men and Domestic Violence asked men in ...[text shortened]... 2% admitted to having committed gang rape.[5]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_China
    First of all, this thread was *not* intended to be about rape but about sexist discrimination in dress codes.
    I know that sexist men like to believe, however, that what women wear can provoke rape.
    And that assumption seems to be a motive behind Sleepyguy's post.

    Personally, I cannot understand why wearing a dress or skirt that's a bit 'too short' would
    naturally provoke rape while it supposedly would be completely safe if it was a bit longer.
    It seems to me that a rapist's not that finicky about choosing his victim on the basis of her hemline.

    I also know that changing the subject to "It's supposedly worse over there" is a favorite
    diversionary tactic of the right-wing. Many right-wing white Americans have liked to argue
    that black Americans should not complain about racism or poverty in the USA because
    most black Africans are worse off than they. So perhaps Sleepyguy believes that the USA
    has no need to change its popular sexist attitudes or reduce its high incidence of rape.

    If Sleepyguy wants to push his pet 'non-white men must be worse than white men
    toward women' angle further, then he could cite sexual violence in South Africa:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa
    "The rate of sexual violence in South Africa is among the highest in the world."

    The issues (plural) about rape in China are complex, and some Chinese men and women
    have given intense thought to them. They understand these issues better than Western
    journalists who tend to resort to superficial, often sensationalistic, racist stereotypes.

    Here's a British Library abstract of a PhD thesis by a Chinese (University of Edinburgh, 2005):
    http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.660826

    "Marital rape in China and the UK: problems in the current approach to culture and law "
    --X. Qian

    "The thesis deals with approaches to the study of culture and law in the context of the
    problem of marital rape in China. On the basis of the empirical research, serious legal
    inconsistency can be found: while the legislation has actually criminalized marital rape,
    most judges decriminalize marital rape actions. I argue that the problems are related to
    the misunderstanding of the concept of culture and culture’s relationship with law, which
    is in turn related to the current approach to culture and law studies. I suggest methodological
    improvements here which better help in looking at problems and solutions in respect of
    marital rape. The thesis is structured as follows. Chapter 1 reviews the literature in the
    areas concerned. Chapter 2 provides empirical data on Chinese marital rape law, including
    legislation, judicial practices and attitudes of different groups of people to martial rape.
    Chapter 3 analyses that empirical data concluding that a new approach of memetics has
    advantages over the current cultural approach. In Chapter 4, by briefly reviewing the
    criminalization of marital rape in the UK, I try to demonstrate a wider validity for the memetic approach.
    In the final chapter I argue for memetics as an approach both to the theoretical problems
    in law and culture studies and also to the problems of Chinese marital rape law."

    What does this mean? There are some dedicated Chinese men and women working hard to
    educate people about rape and to change laws and practices to make it easier to oppose rape.
    These Chinese may not have succeeded yet, but they evidently are making progress.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/15/china-women-domestic-violence-new-law

    "China’s domestic violence victims could benefit from new legal protections.
    Two contrasting Chinese wife-beating cases have provoked public outrage and led
    to a proposed new law of protection and redress."

    "China stands on the verge of passing a landmark new domestic violence law,
    a victory decades in the making that owes much to the extraordinary, and very different,
    stories of two battered women whose suffering helped prompt a national debate."

    "Most surveys show that between 25% and 40% of women in China suffer domestic violence,
    roughly in line with global norms and compared to around 25% in the United States.
    But statistics in China are still patchy, and reporting rare: there is some evidence that
    the proportion could be significantly higher, especially in rural areas."

    "In March [2015], in apparent response to the furore over Li Yan’s case, authorities
    issued new guidelines to judges and police saying self-defence can apply in cases
    where defendants are trying to prevent domestic violence. More generally, the stories
    of Kim Lee and Li Yan have helped activists record what could be a landmark victory.

    “China is not an easy country in which to be an activist on any issue, including gender issues,”
    said Julie Brossard, who runs the UN Women office in China. “For them to get to this point
    is actually a huge achievement."

    "Change has been coming for a while. Domestic violence was first outlawed in the
    marriage act of 2001, but it has not been regularly enforced.
    The proposed new law gives victims of violence access to redress and protection,
    including restraining orders, and it requires local governments to set up more shelters.
    But it fails to outlaw marital rape, and it puts too much onus on the police to respond,
    and not enough emphasis on health and social services, critics say."
  7. 01 Sep '17 02:31
    If it is not about rape and domestic violence why was this in the op?


    At a global scale the rate of violence against women is that one in three girls
    have experienced violence, whether that be domestic violence or sexual assault,”
    Laura Palumbo, communications director for the National Sexual Violence
    Resource Center, told Yahoo Style in an interview last week.
    “That is something that is clearly happening at a scale across cultures
    and countries and suggests that it is much more of a complex issue
    than how a woman dresses and is actually rooted in the very ideas of
    traditional masculinity and subjugation of women.”"
  8. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    01 Sep '17 04:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    In March 2017, I created this thread: "Dress Code: How It's Different for Girls".
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/debates/dress-code-how-different-its-for-girls.172178

    https://www.yahoo.com/style/california-student-told-not-wearing-bra-makes-people-assume-bad-things-192342087.html

    "California student told that not wearing a bra makes 'people assum ...[text shortened]... nd is actually rooted in the very ideas of
    traditional masculinity and subjugation of women.”"
    Girls who go through high school in the US know the dress code double standard all too well, as the attitudes haven't changed much in decades. Somehow the onus is always on girls to dress so as to not "distract the boys from their school work". Of course the unsaid attitude is that boys' schoolwork is far more important than girls'. Another undercurrent is that this reinforces the idea that girls are wholly at fault for driving the boys insane with desire and that it's not their fault if they can't keep their pants zipped up. I'd expect to hear similar from Islamic countries (as they tend to be more sexually repressive with regards to dress) but these are mainly Republicans who would presumably be insulted to be compared to Muslim society.

    I just don't see these Victorian attitudes going away anytime soon.
  9. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    01 Sep '17 04:10
    Originally posted by @eladar
    If it is not about rape and domestic violence why was this in the op?


    At a global scale the rate of violence against women is that one in three girls
    have experienced violence, whether that be domestic violence or sexual assault,”
    Laura Palumbo, communications director for the National Sexual Violence
    Resource Center, told Yahoo Style in an intervi ...[text shortened]... nd is actually rooted in the very ideas of
    traditional masculinity and subjugation of women.”"
    We know that you don't get it.

    You don't have to constantly prove it to us.
  10. 01 Sep '17 06:54 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Girls who go through high school in the US know the dress code double standard all too well, as the attitudes haven't changed much in decades. Somehow the onus is always on girls to dress so as to not "distract the boys from their school work". Of course the unsaid attitude is that boys' schoolwork is far more important than girls'. Another undercurrent ...[text shortened]... mpared to Muslim society.

    I just don't see these Victorian attitudes going away anytime soon.
    If girls were adopting Victorian values they would have full length dresses and shawls, that is dresses that extend not only below the knee but also cover the ankles. Its hardly 'Victorian' to expect men and women to dress modestly, is it. In my school we had to wear a blazer with braiding and an embroidered badge at all times, dark trousers and formal shoes, even on Saturdays when we visited other schools to play Rugby.
  11. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    01 Sep '17 07:02
    Rape is about power and has nothing to do with clothing.

    As for women wearing bras or not: who the hell cares??? People should wear what they want.

    All the time? No.
    If you're working on a road... wear reflective clothing, if you're working on a building site... wear a bloody hard hat.

    It's not rocket science. Sime dress codes are sensible.
    If you are at school wear something you can keep a pen in.

    Bras??? Who cares!
  12. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    01 Sep '17 10:15
    Originally posted by @robbie-carrobie
    If girls were adopting Victorian values they would have full length dresses and shawls, that is dresses that extend not only below the knee but also cover the ankles. Its hardly 'Victorian' to expect men and women to dress modestly, is it. In my school we had to wear a blazer with braiding and an embroidered badge at all times, dark trousers and formal shoes, even on Saturdays when we visited other schools to play Rugby.
    Okay, no problem. You're in Eladar's boat as someone who "doesn't get it".

    Come on, both of you. Step boldly into the 21st Century, instead of stuck in a dead past where women are second-class citizens.
  13. 01 Sep '17 16:05
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Okay, no problem. You're in Eladar's boat as someone who "doesn't get it".

    Come on, both of you. Step boldly into the 21st Century, instead of stuck in a dead past where women are second-class citizens.
    Vilification not working for you Susan. Repeat after me, must try rationale argument.
  14. 01 Sep '17 18:13
    Originally posted by @eladar
    If it is not about rape and domestic violence why was this in the op?

    At a global scale the rate of violence against women is that one in three girls
    have experienced violence, whether that be domestic violence or sexual assault,”
    Laura Palumbo, communications director for the National Sexual Violence
    Resource Center, told Yahoo Style in an interview ...[text shortened]... nd is actually rooted in the very ideas of
    traditional masculinity and subjugation of women.”"
    Eladar fails to comprehend that Laura Palumbo was simply pointing out that it's wrong
    to blame a female's dress for provoking rape or sexual assault against her. And that's
    an implied rationale for punitive dress codes against girls. Females must be punished in
    order to deter them from wearing revealing clothes that would provoke males into raping them,
    as though the males must have no control over themselves and no responsibility for their actions.

    If I created a thread about vegetarianism and mentioned (in passing) that Hitler was a vegetarian,
    then would Eladar jump to the conclusion that the thread's supposed to be about Hitler, not vegetarianism?
  15. 01 Sep '17 18:19
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Rape is about power and has nothing to do with clothing.

    As for women wearing bras or not: who the hell cares??? People should wear what they want.

    All the time? No.
    If you're working on a road... wear reflective clothing, if you're working on a building site... wear a bloody hard hat.

    It's not rocket science. Sime dress codes are sensible.
    If you are at school wear something you can keep a pen in.

    Bras??? Who cares!
    In general, rape is a violent crime with a sexual component. (Statutory rape may be an exception.)

    I know of no evidence that a girl who violates a school dress code is more likely than
    a girl who complies with it to be raped or sexually assaulted.

    As far as I know, almost no rapists ever have sincerely claimed that they raped a woman
    or girl only because they became uncontrollably aroused by her 'provocative' attire.