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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    08 Nov '16 02:481 edit
    This thread arose as an intersection between recent threads about
    American football and anti-Asian racism in the USA.

    "In American sport, the event is pretty much the whole ball of wax."
    --Sh76 (1 September 2016)

    Sh76 was arguing (in a thread about Colin Kaepernick) that as long as
    an athlete could perform well and help his team win, then his race and
    political or religious beliefs would not affect how he was treated.

    But that's not necessarily true. In early 1942, the famous Rose Bowl
    college football game was moved from its traditional home in Pasadena, California
    to North Carolina in part because of fears that Japanese aircraft could bomb the stadium.
    (Some Japanese submarines were capable of launching a seaplane that
    could carry bombs.) Oregon State defeated Duke University in the game.

    One of Oregon State's players was Jack Yoshihara, who had been born
    and grown up in the USA and was of Japanese heritage. One day at
    football practice in Oregon, FBI agents arrived and took him away.
    His coach was informed that he was considered a threat to national
    security and would not be allowed to travel and to play football any more.
    A few months later, Jack Yoshihara and his family were forced into an internment camp.
    He never graduated from Oregon State University, though he did receive
    an honorary degree in 2008.

    "Nobody [on the football team] felt Jack [Yoshihara] was a subversive threat.
    He was an American. My heritage is German. Nobody discriminated against me."
    --James Busch (former college football teammate of Jack Yoshihara)

    http://poweredbyorange.com/2016/10/27/men-of-roses-one-man-left-behind/

    "Men of Roses: One Man Left Behind"
  2. Behind the scenes
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    08 Nov '16 04:00
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    This thread arose as an intersection between recent threads about
    American football and anti-Asian racism in the USA.

    "In American sport, the event is pretty much the whole ball of wax."
    --Sh76 (1 September 2016)

    Sh76 was arguing (in a thread about Colin Kaepernick) that as long as
    an athlete could perform well and help his team win, then his rac ...[text shortened]... byorange.com/2016/10/27/men-of-roses-one-man-left-behind/

    "Men of Roses: One Man Left Behind"
    Yes, we know. Once again, the white man is the enemy!😠😠😠
  3. Standard membervivify
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    08 Nov '16 05:25
    Referencing a situation from 1942 to debate a point about sports in 2016 is a flawed way to argue.
  4. Standard membershavixmir
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    08 Nov '16 08:37
    Originally posted by vivify
    Referencing a situation from 1942 to debate a point about sports in 2016 is a flawed way to argue.
    Is it?
    So, if one draws, say comparisons to Trump's rhetoric to that of Goebbels and Hitler, it's a flawed argument per definition?

    If I continue asking questions to ponder your thesis, am I not Socratic? Or is the reference untrue, because you have thought up a random sell-by date for examples?
  5. Standard membervivify
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    08 Nov '16 15:211 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Is it?
    So, if one draws, say comparisons to Trump's rhetoric to that of Goebbels and Hitler, it's a flawed argument per definition?

    If I continue asking questions to ponder your thesis, am I not Socratic? Or is the reference untrue, because you have thought up a random sell-by date for examples?
    Stimulating questions, old chap.

    Due to the fact that the country (and the world) was entirely different in 1942 (segregation was still legal, blackface on and racist cartoons on TV were common, it was legal to pay women less for the same work....etc.), "1942" isn't a "random sell-by date".

    Do you agree or disagree?
  6. Joined
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    08 Nov '16 15:43
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    This thread arose as an intersection between recent threads about
    American football and anti-Asian racism in the USA.

    "In American sport, the event is pretty much the whole ball of wax."
    --Sh76 (1 September 2016)

    Sh76 was arguing (in a thread about Colin Kaepernick) that as long as
    an athlete could perform well and help his team win, then his rac ...[text shortened]... byorange.com/2016/10/27/men-of-roses-one-man-left-behind/

    "Men of Roses: One Man Left Behind"
    Anti-Asian racism?

    Try Hollywood. No really big actors are Asian unless they are a stereotypical karate man.
  7. Joined
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    08 Nov '16 20:43
    Originally posted by whodey
    Anti-Asian racism?

    Try Hollywood. No really big actors are Asian unless they are a stereotypical karate man.
    How about the NFL?
  8. Zugzwang
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    08 Nov '16 21:421 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Referencing a situation from 1942 to debate a point about sports in 2016 is a flawed way to argue.
    Vivify has shown that he objects to anti-black racism but apparently not so much, if at all, to anti-Asian racism.

    Would Vivify condemn African Americans (as he apparently would condemn Asian Americans)
    for citing the existence of anti-black racism during or before the Second World War?
    Would Vivify condemn African Americans for citing the existence of slavery *until 1865*
    when complaining about modern racism against them? I note that some modern African Americans because
    that they deserve reparations from the US government because they distant ancestors might have been slaves.

    I doubt Vivify would do that because he knows that African Americans have major political
    influence (including President Obama) while Asian Americans lack it in the United States.
    Hence, even most American racists often feel that they must pretend that they believe
    that anti-black racism is wrong and put on a fake show of respect for African Americans.
    In contrast, there typically are hardly any adverse consequences, politically or socially,
    for venting overt anti-Asian racism in the USA.

    I know an Asian American who was a financial manager (his 'glass ceiling' ) on Wall Street.
    For years, he watched as some less qualified and experienced people were promoted ahead of him.
    He heard his boss (a white man) declare that, unfortunately, the corporation would have
    to appoint a token black, a token Latino, and a token woman to its executive board in
    order to deflect government scrutiny of its institutional racism and sexism. His boss
    added that no Asian would ever be appointed to its executive board because no one
    in power cared about discrimination against Asians.
  9. Zugzwang
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    08 Nov '16 22:042 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    Stimulating questions, old chap.

    Due to the fact that the country (and the world) was entirely different in 1942 (segregation was still legal, blackface on and racist cartoons on TV were common, it was legal to pay women less for the same work....etc.), "1942" isn't a "random sell-by date".

    Do you agree or disagree?
    Would Vivify condemn African Americans for daring to cite the existence of slavery?
    Surely, the United States before 1866 was very different from the United States in 2016 (150 years later).

    Vivify apparently objects to 'blackface', but he shows no concern about 'yellowface'.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examples_of_yellowface

    I note that 'yellowface' has been accepted in Hollywood long after 'blackface' has become unacceptable.
    The iconic Chinese character 'Charlie Chan' has been persistently played by
    white actors, including Peter Ustinov in 1981.

    The Wikipedia article cites examples of 'yellowface' up until today (or at least 2015).
    Emma Stone, a white actress, was cast to play an Asian American woman in a 2015 film.
    (Can Vivify imagine the objections if a white actor played an African American in 2015?)

    One of the most common ways for Hollywood to attempt to evade criticisms of racism
    while employing 'yellowface' is to rewrite an Asian character as a Eurasian (half-Asian
    and half-white) character, which almost invariably has been played by a white actor.
    The popular American television series 'Kung Fu' (originally a concept of Bruce Lee)
    was rewritten from having a Chinese hero to having a half-Chinese, half-white hero
    who was played by a white actor, David Carradine, using 'yellowface' prosthetics.

    Although there may be stereotypical racist images of blacks in American pop culture,
    there are far fewer objections to apparently even more common stereotypical racist
    images of East Asians (East Asians and South Asians have different stereotypes).

    I expect Vivify, who seems very ignorant and unconcerned about racism unless it has
    been highlighted by the mainstream US media (which has very few Asian voices), to
    embrace the 'double standard' between anti-black racism and anti-Asian racism.
  10. Zugzwang
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    08 Nov '16 22:142 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Anti-Asian racism?

    Try Hollywood. No really big actors are Asian unless they are a stereotypical karate man.
    Let's try a thought experiment. Think of your favorite white or black actor in the world.
    Or think of the most talented (professionally skilled) actor that you can imagine.
    Then give him an East Asian face. What do you think would happen to his career?

    He would not be a Hollywood star, except perhaps in the narrow martial arts action genre.
    He definitely could not be cast as a leading man. It would be practically taboo to show
    him in any romantic or sexual (gasp!) scenes with a white leading lady.

    Even if this actor could play Shakespeare as well as Laurence Olivier had done, he never
    would get the opportunity. His agent would advise him to work on his martial arts skills.
    Or learn enough of an Asian language to pursue a career in Asia.

    But when nearly all Americans talk about racism in Hollywood, their focus is on racism against blacks,
    lately perhaps Latinos too. Most Americans grow up accepting very inaccurate (and
    often demeaning) stereotypes of Asians as normal.
  11. Zugzwang
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    08 Nov '16 22:29
    Originally posted by Eladar
    How about the NFL?
    There have been a few Asian Americans in the NFL. Dat Nguyen (Vietnamese) played as a
    linebacker for seven years and was named by the Associated Press as an All-Pro (second team).
    Like Jeremy Lin in basketball, Dat Nguyen has said that at every level--high school, college, professional--
    when he started out, the common assumption was that he could not play well at that level.
    A current NFL player, Patrick Chung (born in Jamaica) has Chinese and black ancestry.

    In the 1980s, Darryl Wong was a successful quarterback (Dartmouth) in college football.
    He was a late cut in training camp of the San Francisco 49ers. Rather than spend
    years chasing a dream of the NFL, he went to medical school and became a doctor.
    (Will that be the next career move for Tim Tebow?)
  12. Zugzwang
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    09 Nov '16 02:321 edit
    Originally posted by mchill
    Yes, we know. Once again, the white man is the enemy!😠😠😠
    Mchill keeps showing that he's a racist troll (one of many at RHP).

    "If HRC [Hillary Rodham Clinton] wins [the election] she will appoint her Filipino (sic) maid to head the CIA.
    She already has the access to all the secrets anyway. No need to train her."
    --Mike Huckabee (8 November 2016, a Republican former governor of Arkansas)

    Do any white men here notice anything racist about Mike Huckabee's comment?
    Would they notice anything racist if he had referred to an African American maid?
    Mike Huckabee's kind of casual anti-Asian racism is hardly ever criticized in US politics.
  13. Standard membervivify
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    09 Nov '16 03:07
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Would Vivify condemn African Americans for daring to cite the existence of slavery?
    Surely, the United States before 1866 was very different from the United States in 2016 (150 years later).

    Vivify apparently objects to 'blackface', but he shows no concern about 'yellowface'.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examples_of_yellowface

    I note that 'yellow ...[text shortened]... sian voices), to
    embrace the 'double standard' between anti-black racism and anti-Asian racism.
    You clearly know nothing about U.S. sports.

    Sports teams only care about making money, not the race/religion of a player. If a player has the talent to win (and therefore profit off of), race is not a factor.
    Jeremy Lin became an overnight sensation just by playing well. This couldn't have happened in any sport in any major U.S. sport in 1942.
  14. Zugzwang
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    09 Nov '16 03:30
    Originally posted by vivify
    You clearly know nothing about U.S. sports.

    Sports teams only care about making money, not the race/religion of a player. If a player has the talent to win (and therefore profit off of), race is not a factor.
    Jeremy Lin became an overnight sensation just by playing well. This couldn't have happened in any sport in any major U.S. sport in 1942.
    The arrogant troll Vivify prefers to ignore my major points and set up a 'strawman'.

    First of all, I note that most of the major professional sports (with major league baseball
    being the most notable exception) hardly existed before 1942 in the USA.

    "Jeremy Lin became an overnight sensation just by playing well."
    --Vivify

    That disingenuous comment leaves out much of the real story. In fact, Jeremy Lin
    (an undrafted player) was close to getting cut by the New York Knicks. His coach,
    Mike D'Antoni, was close to getting fired (he would get fired later that season) because
    his team was doing so poorly. The team also was beset by injuries, including to its
    star player Carmelo Anthony. Jeremy Lin had hardly played at all during the season.
    So, with nothing left to lose, the desperate coach gave Jeremy Lin a chance to play.
    It probably would have been his first and last chance to prove that he could be an NBA player.
    It was like, in baseball, going to bat knowing one already had two strikes called.
    Jeremy Lin made the most of his only opportunity. He himself has said that he has
    experienced persistent prejudice at every level of basketball--high school, college, and professional.

    Even so, there remained--to this day--widespread disbelief among (often racist) fans
    as well as 'experts' that Jeremy Lin *really* can play in the NBA. His coaches for his
    next two teams, Houston Rockets (McHale) and Los Angeles Lakers (Scott), showed
    little or no confidence in Jeremy Lin. It's not until that he found coaches who showed
    some confidence (in Charlotte) or much confidence (now in Brooklyn) that Jeremy Lin
    was able to enjoy playing professional basketball again.
  15. Standard membervivify
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    09 Nov '16 03:401 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    The arrogant troll Vivify prefers to ignore my major points and set up a 'strawman'.

    First of all, I note that most of the major professional sports (with major league baseball
    being the most notable exception) hardly existed before 1942 in the USA.

    "Jeremy Lin became an overnight sensation just by playing well."
    --Vivify

    That disingenuous com ...[text shortened]... ence (now in Brooklyn) that Jeremy Lin
    was able to enjoy playing professional basketball again.
    Duchess, you've lost an insane amount of debates to me; so much so, that even you stopped disputing this, because I was constantly throwing my victories in your face whenever you became haughty. I'd suggest you employ some humility, before you (yet again), lose another debate, while displaying a screaming fit like you always do when you lose.

    "First of all, I note that most of the major professional sports (with major league baseball
    being the most notable exception) hardly existed before 1942 in the USA."

    Hence, part of the reason why referencing U.S. sports from back then makes your argument severely flawed.

    See how easy this for me, Duchess? Does this bring back old memories?
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