Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Behind the scenes
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    11 Dec '18 08:481 edit
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middle school classmate who works in the garden section of Home Depot, not eligible for promotion to a management job because because he is nearly illiterate. All of them over 45, none made it past the 8th grade. They are poor, white and angry, their health is bad, they drink too much, and have long since given up hope of improving their situation. They are throwbacks from an industrial age that is fading into history. On the rare occasions they write anything, their grammar is childish, their spelling is worse, and all of them engage in childish name calling, such as Libtards, Commies, and Dims (are you listening Whodey) Yes, some of this is their fault, they could have finished high school, or at least gone to the local library to try to learn a new skill., but in some ways the system has left them behind. Their lives have not improved under Trump, but they still cling to the hope this rich New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Dec '18 09:26
    @mchill said
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middl ...[text shortened]... h New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
    You hit the nail on the head with this, I'm afraid.

    These are the angry white folks who think the world owes them something. What are they angry about, their own failures in life? Yes. As white people, they've been told their whole lives that they are the masters of their own fate, but like the Pink Floyd song, no one told them when to run, they missed the starting gun. I guess they just expected greatness to be handed to them, no one told them they had to work for it. And now their White Jesus is here, their savior Donald Trump. The problem is that Donald Trump didn't become a billionaire by helping anyone except Donald Trump.
  3. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 10:17
    @suzianne said
    You hit the nail on the head with this, I'm afraid.

    These are the angry white folks who think the world owes them something. What are they angry about, their own failures in life? Yes. As white people, they've been told their whole lives that they are the masters of their own fate, but like the Pink Floyd song, no one told them when to run, they missed the starting gun ...[text shortened]... The problem is that Donald Trump didn't become a billionaire by helping anyone except Donald Trump.
    Poor people living in deprived area's have a good reason to be angry (regardless of colour). Decades of poor investment in schools and infrastructure have left these people with nothing. They world does owe them something, it owes them opportunity, a chance to have good life. I don't blame them for wanting to shake up Washington, but voting for Trump is inexcusable.
  4. Standard membershavixmir
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    11 Dec '18 10:40
    @mchill said
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middl ...[text shortened]... h New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
    Horrible.

    Why don’t the local authorities have social workers, councelors and inspirational activities working to help people back on their feet?

    This is just damning a next generation to a life of misery.
  5. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 12:581 edit
    @mchill said
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middl ...[text shortened]... h New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
    I have to say, Trump never did anything for the poor like Obama did.

    In fact, I found your mom who was a big Obama fan.

    YouTube

    And I hear your mom had a job at McDonalds, but was laid off when Trump took power.

    Ok, I concede. You are right again I'm afraid.
  6. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    11 Dec '18 13:13
    @mchill said
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middl ...[text shortened]... h New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
    How has the "system" left them behind?

    They're all fully grown adults. Nobody can force them to get off their asses and make their lives better. If they're content to live their lives as they are, so be it. Who are you or I to tell them that their lives aren't good enough?

    The tools are there. You can learn pretty much anything you like for little or no cost in today's day and age, as long as you're willing to put in the time and effort. If they choose to be complacent, either because they're not interested in putting in the effort or because they're happy being what they are, that's their CHOICE.

    This has very little to do with Trump. The fundamentals were all there long before Trump decided to run and will be there long after Trump goes away.

    You can't legislate people into making what you would consider better choices.
  7. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 13:19
    @sh76 said
    How has the "system" left them behind?

    They're all fully grown adults. Nobody can force them to get off their asses and make their lives better. If they're content to live their lives as they are, so be it. Who are you or I to tell them that their lives aren't good enough?

    The tools are there. You can learn pretty much anything you like for little or no cost in today's da ...[text shortened]... r Trump goes away.

    You can't legislate people into making what you would consider better choices.
    They will retort with, just make college or health care free........

    And that is the power of the Left. Just dangle a "free" carrot in front of people for votes like Obama did with his "free" Obamaphone.

    Trouble is, nothing is free and everything has economic ramifications. The damage of the $20 trillion plus debt is crippling the nation.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Dec '18 13:22
    @shavixmir said
    Horrible.

    Why don’t the local authorities have social workers, councelors and inspirational activities working to help people back on their feet?

    This is just damning a next generation to a life of misery.
    Welcome to the Republicans' vision of America.

    "Screw those people. I got mine."
  9. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 13:24
    @whodey said
    They will retort with, just make college or health care free........

    And that is the power of the Left. Just dangle a "free" carrot in front of people for votes like Obama did with his "free" Obamaphone.

    Trouble is, nothing is free and everything has economic ramifications. The damage of the $20 trillion plus debt is crippling the nation.
    Health care free at the point of use, is still paid for by taxes, It happens to very common in the rest of the developed world
  10. Standard membersh76
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    11 Dec '18 13:311 edit
    @whodey said
    They will retort with, just make college or health care free........
    High school is free and the people referenced in the OP didn't finish high school. How would free college help them? (Not to mention that college is already free to people with low incomes at community colleges due to Pell grants.)

    The best free healthcare system in the system in the world isn't going to stop people from drinking themselves to death.
  11. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 14:31
    @sh76 said
    High school is free and the people referenced in the OP didn't finish high school. How would free college help them? (Not to mention that college is already free to people with low incomes at community colleges due to Pell grants.)

    The best free healthcare system in the system in the world isn't going to stop people from drinking themselves to death.
    These situations need to be looked at on a case by case basis, otherwise they are likely to be analyzed by us according to our preconceived notions. This includes notions expressed by the OP although he is closer to the situation and should be given some credence. My father had to stop schooling at eighth grade, you could say of his own choosing, but his family needed the income and dropping out was not uncommon in his day. He worked his way up to be district manager of a large chain store and then set up and ran his own neighborhood market, raised five kids, four of us got degrees, the one that didn’t, emulated our dad, learned a trade, eventually ran his own business in that trade and was the most successful financially of the bunch of us. Two others of us have lived lives of genteel poverty but don’t blame anyone for that and have voluntarily lived within relatively meager limits. So whatever is missing from the upbringing of those pro-Trump supposed losers, look to their individual cases and perhaps judge them by their own standards. Besides, the most successful of us was the most right-leaning conservative of all of us, although Trumpism should not be mistaken for Conservatism.
  12. Subscriberdivegeester
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    11 Dec '18 14:57
    @mchill said
    I honestly do. These folks are usually not happy people. I know a few of them personally. They are my cousin who has not worked since 1997, lives off the charity of his sister in a small trailer in a tiny west coast town, still hoping for the only lumber mill in the area (his last job) to reopen. My brother in law, who makes a marginal living repairing old cars. A former middl ...[text shortened]... h New York businessman will somehow make things better for them.

    Pigs might fly, but I doubt it.
    Just being devils advocate here; but surely they were like this under Obama too?
  13. Standard membersh76
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    11 Dec '18 15:15
    @js357 said
    These situations need to be looked at on a case by case basis, otherwise they are likely to be analyzed by us according to our preconceived notions. This includes notions expressed by the OP although he is closer to the situation and should be given some credence. My father had to stop schooling at eighth grade, you could say of his own choosing, but his family needed the incom ...[text shortened]... right-leaning conservative of all of us, although Trumpism should not be mistaken for Conservatism.
    All of that is true, of course, but none of it can be "fixed" by the government. People might have given up their educations due to circumstances beyond their control or for excellent reasons, and many succeed without education, of course. My point was that this is not really about politics. Trump didn't stop the OP's relatives from dropping out of high school and all the Bernie Sanders' in the world won't force them to finish it.
  14. Joined
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    11 Dec '18 16:14
    @sh76 said
    All of that is true, of course, but none of it can be "fixed" by the government. People might have given up their educations due to circumstances beyond their control or for excellent reasons, and many succeed without education, of course. My point was that this is not really about politics. Trump didn't stop the OP's relatives from dropping out of high school and all the Bernie Sanders' in the world won't force them to finish it.
    We are in vociferous agreement that even Trump or Sanders can’t ‘force’ the decisions a teenager made 30 years ago. But he could influence the decisions of teens and their voting parents now, in ways that have long term effects. Telling Ohio auto plant workers not to sell their houses, in a campaign speech, was intended to influence voters, to have a long term effect on, say, the SCOTUS.
  15. Germany
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    11 Dec '18 16:49
    @sh76 said
    How has the "system" left them behind?

    They're all fully grown adults. Nobody can force them to get off their asses and make their lives better. If they're content to live their lives as they are, so be it. Who are you or I to tell them that their lives aren't good enough?

    The tools are there. You can learn pretty much anything you like for little or no cost in today's da ...[text shortened]... r Trump goes away.

    You can't legislate people into making what you would consider better choices.
    If the only thing that mattered were people's choices, every society would have the same standard of living. Since that is clearly not the case, we are forced to conclude that some systems are just better than others, and Americans would be wise to learn from the best systems currently around and adopt their strengths.
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