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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    09 May '11 07:09 / 1 edit
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/04/03/slut-walk-toronto.html

    A group of Toronto marchers took to the streets Sunday
    afternoon in what they’re calling a “slut walk" in response
    to controversial comments made by a police constable earlier
    this year.

    In January, Toronto Police Const. Michael Sanguinetti told a
    personal security class at York University that "women should
    avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

    Sanguinetti apologized for his comments, but his apology
    failed to satisfy walk organizer Sonya Barnett.


    Let's start with a fact: rape is abhorrent, whether it is perpetrated
    on a male or a female. It is a crime. It is unasked for, regardless
    of what the victim was looking like, doing, etc.

    That said, what officer Sanguinetti said was real and practical,
    neither a statement of value nor a judgment of any sort. He, as
    a policeman, knows that some barbaric idiots do not know how to
    live in a free, respectful society. They are the monsters.
    They should be the target of public outcry.

    Those women should march against the rapists, not against a
    police officer who gave practical advice. And, if they get raped,
    I bet you officer Sanguinetti will be there to chase their victimizer,
    not Noam Chomsky or Susan Sontag.

    Me, for instance, I rather have my daughter have a chat with
    officer Sanguinetti about practical measures to avoid being
    victimized than having a cup of coffee with any of those PC
    clowns playing to be righteous in an unreal world existing only
    in their minds, i.e. the Empire of Semantics.

    Screw semantics. Slut is slut. Ladies: if you're planning to walk
    through an unsafe area at risky hours, please do not carry on
    visible jewelry, have comfortable shoes in case you need to
    run, and also try not looking as a slut.
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    09 May '11 07:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Let's start with a fact: rape is abhorrent, whether it is perpetrated
    on a male or a female. It is a crime. It is unasked for, regardless
    of what the victim was looking like, doing, etc.
    I agree wholeheartedly with the above. Sanguinetti was right to apologise, as he did. The protests - which are being staged all over North America and elsewhere - don't strike me as an appropriate reaction in view of Sanguinetti's apology, but they do indicate that the police officer's derogatory language caused considerable anger. Way I see it, all women, and men too, should think twice if they're planning to walk through an unsafe area at risky hours.
  3. 09 May '11 07:48 / 1 edit
    People should learn that there is a difference between being at fault for something, and having the power to prevent it. That said, the police officer would have better made that distinction perfectly clear when he was giving his talk on such a charged topic.

    Edit; On a related note, has anyone ever seen any kind of study that suggests the manner of clothing of women has any effect on the chances of getting sexually assaulted ?
  4. 09 May '11 08:11
    Originally posted by Barts
    People should learn that there is a difference between being at fault for something, and having the power to prevent it. That said, the police officer would have better made that distinction perfectly clear when he was giving his talk on such a charged topic.

    Edit; On a related note, has anyone ever seen any kind of study that suggests the manner of clothing of women has any effect on the chances of getting sexually assaulted ?
    I doubt it plays much of a role. If I remember correctly, around 4 in 5 rapes are committed by people who know the victim - in these cases it does not seem like provocative clothing is a trigger, but rather the rapist has built up some trust or has a position of power with respect to the victim. In the remaining 1 in 5 cases, if you look at the news items on girls being raped you'll find that they are often quite ugly. Again, "sexiness" does not seem to play a big role to me, instead rapists look for someone who is easily victimized; i.e. someone with low self-esteem - often not the attractive ones.

    Would like to see some research though.
  5. 09 May '11 09:52
    Originally posted by Barts
    Edit; On a related note, has anyone ever seen any kind of study that suggests the manner of clothing of women has any effect on the chances of getting sexually assaulted ?
    I have no idea if it affects the chances of getting sexually assaulted, but it does affect the chances of getting robbed. From personal experience, I have two sisters who dressed very differently. One was far more likely to be bothered by people trying to rob or otherwise bother her. She didn't dress provocatively, but she did look more vulnerable and possibly more likely to have money on her.
    I myself have also noticed a marked difference between the way I get treated by potential miscreants depending on how I dress. If I am wearing worn jeans etc I get left alone much more than if I am wearing smart clothes and a tie.
  6. Subscriber Proper Knob
    Cornovii
    09 May '11 10:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I doubt it plays much of a role. If I remember correctly, around 4 in 5 rapes are committed by people who know the victim - in these cases it does not seem like provocative clothing is a trigger, but rather the rapist has built up some trust or has a position of power with respect to the victim. In the remaining 1 in 5 cases, if you look at the news ite h low self-esteem - often not the attractive ones.

    Would like to see some research though.
    Here's a US study, it's from '95 so it's a few years old, but it does back up what you're saying.

    Percentage distribution of female victims perpetrator relationship -

    Spouse/ex spouse - 20.2%
    Co-habiting partner/ex partner - 4.3%
    Date/former date - 21.5%
    Relative other than spouse - 22.4%
    Acquaintance - 27.3%
    Stranger - 16.7%

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/210346.pdf
  7. 09 May '11 12:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have no idea if it affects the chances of getting sexually assaulted, but it does affect the chances of getting robbed. From personal experience, I have two sisters who dressed very differently. One was far more likely to be bothered by people trying to rob or otherwise bother her. She didn't dress provocatively, but she did look more vulnerable and pos ...[text shortened]... wearing worn jeans etc I get left alone much more than if I am wearing smart clothes and a tie.
    I have no problem believing that, but as you say, you can't just extrapolate that to sexual crimes. Robbery is about the stuff someone has, someone dresses if fancy and expensive clothes, chances are higher they're carrying something worth stealing. For sexual assault however, a women is a women and can be raped, no matter the clothes she is wearing.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    09 May '11 15:47 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Seitse
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/04/03/slut-walk-toronto.html

    [/i]A group of Toronto marchers took to the streets Sunday
    afternoon in what they’re calling a “slut walk" in response
    to controversial comments made by a police constable earlier
    this year.

    In January, Toronto Police Const. Michael Sanguinetti told a
    personal security welry, have comfortable shoes in case you need to
    run, and also try not looking as a slut.
    Sanguinetti obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and shouldn't be teaching anybody anything.

    I agree with the comments of the Toronto Police Chief from the article cited in the OP:

    Toronto police Chief Bill Blair said Sanguinetti's comments highlight a "training issue" in the force.

    "If that type of, frankly, archaic thinking still exists among any of my officers, it highlights for me the need to continue to train my officers and sensitize them to the reality of victimization," he said.

    The comments attributed to the officer "place the blame upon victims, and that's not where the blame should ever be placed," Blair said.


    Sanguinetti's lucky to still have a job; defense of him is misguided.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    09 May '11 15:48
    I know a slut. She likes to be raped.

    However, that doesn't mean all sluts like to be raped.
  10. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    09 May '11 19:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Sanguinetti obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and shouldn't be teaching anybody anything.

    I agree with the comments of the Toronto Police Chief from the article cited in the OP:

    Toronto police Chief Bill Blair said Sanguinetti's comments highlight a "training issue" in the force.

    "If that type of, fr Sanguinetti's lucky to still have a job; defense of him is misguided.
    Other than the usual cookie cutter mainstream TV wisdom, I
    find no original thoughts in your post. Sorry. try again.

    Do you like dressing as a slut?
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    09 May '11 20:05
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Other than the usual cookie cutter mainstream TV wisdom, I
    find no original thoughts in your post. Sorry. try again.

    Do you like dressing as a slut?
    Does your mother?
  12. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    10 May '11 07:28
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Does your mother?
    Only when she pimps yours.
  13. 10 May '11 09:00
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I know a slut. She likes to be raped.
    Rape is, by definition, something the recipient does not like.
  14. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    10 May '11 13:15
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    Here's a US study, it's from '95 so it's a few years old, but it does back up what you're saying.

    Percentage distribution of female victims perpetrator relationship -

    Spouse/ex spouse - 20.2%
    Co-habiting partner/ex partner - 4.3%
    Date/former date - 21.5%
    Relative other than spouse - 22.4%
    Acquaintance - 27.3%
    Stranger - 16.7%

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/210346.pdf
    .....I thought the numbers looked heavy. They are. They total 112.4%
  15. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    10 May '11 13:29 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Seitse
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/04/03/slut-walk-toronto.html

    [i]A group of Toronto marchers took to the streets Sunday
    afternoon in what they’re calling a “slut walk" in response
    to controversial comments made by a police constable earlier
    this year.

    In January, Toronto Police Const. Michael Sanguinetti told a
    personal security welry, have comfortable shoes in case you need to
    run, and also try not looking as a slut.
    I wouldn't like Sanguinetti's problems, but at least he didn't go this far.



    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=38561

    Imam justifies rape of unveiled women
    Australian cleric compares victims
    to 'uncovered meat' that attracts cats
    Posted: October 26, 2006
    1:40 pm Eastern

    © 2011 WorldNetDaily.com

    Australia's top Muslim cleric rationalized a series of gang rapes by Arab men, blaming women who "sway suggestively," wear make-up and don't cover themselves in the tradition of Islam.


    Sheik Ibrahim Mogra with Sheik Taj el-Dene Elhilaly. (Courtesy Sydney Daily Telegraph)

    Sheik Taj el-Dene Elhilaly's comments in a Ramadan sermon in a Sydney mosque have stirred a furor in the country with even Prime Minister John Howard weighing in with condemnation.

    The cleric also said the judge in the case, who sentenced the rapists, had "no mercy."

    "But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he said, referring to the women victims – whom he said were "weapons used by Satan."

    The victims of the vicious gang rapes are leading the national outcry – with some calling for deportation of the sheik. In a Sydney Daily Telegraph online poll, 84 percent of people said the Egyptian-born sheik should be deported.


    "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" the sheik said in his sermon. "The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

    A 16-year-old girl, whose gang rape investigation was the subject of a secret police report, issued an open letter yesterday.

    "You are a sad person who has no understanding of what really happens when these people inflict harm and degrading acts upon me or any other young girl," she said.

    Initially, the mufti of Australia would not back away from his comments. But today he apologized.

    "I unreservedly apologize to any woman who is offended by my comments," he said in a statement. "I had only intended to protect women's honor."

    Howard said the sheik's remarks were "appalling and reprehensible."