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Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
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    01 Apr '17 17:225 edits
    There's an 80's comedy that was popular at the time called "Revenge of the Nerds", where geeky students get revenge on their bullies.

    Near the end, there's a scene where one of the nerds dresses up in a Darth Vader costume, and pretends to be the boyfriend (who is also one of the bullies) of a girl he likes. She has sex with him while the nerd's mask is still on, believing he is the boyfriend.

    Now, in the movie, she enjoyed the act, and ultimately ended up with the nerd. But in real life, would this be rape? There was no force, coercion or influence of drugs or alcohol, and she was fully conscious. There definitely seems to be some type of crime here (hopefully some law experts here can help me out). But...is it rape?
  2. Standard membervivify
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    01 Apr '17 18:054 edits
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11261464/Lied-your-way-into-sex-You-could-be-a-rapist.html

    It has been proposed to have a law in the U.S. regarding rape by deception, something already active in the U.K. An example given in the article would be if a movie producer lies to a woman about putting her in a movie to have sex with her.

    http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/11/rape_by_fraud_nj_lawmaker_introduces_bill_to_make_it_a_crime.html

    The above article gives more detail about the bill (proposed in New Jersey), uses an example where a woman could claim rape after having sex with a man who lied about his income and profession.

    Should lying be a punishable offense as rape?
  3. Standard memberDeepThought
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    01 Apr '17 19:11
    Originally posted by vivify
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11261464/Lied-your-way-into-sex-You-could-be-a-rapist.html

    It has been proposed to have a law in the U.S. regarding rape by deception, something already active in the U.K. An example given in the article would be if a movie producer lies to a woman about putting her in a movie to have sex with her.

    http://w ...[text shortened]... man who lied about his income and profession.

    Should lying be a punishable offense as rape?
    In the OP he's pretending to be someone else, so she's given a different person consent. I don't see the relevance of income to a one night stand. If this is meant to be a relationship then it's off to a bad start if it starts with lies.
  4. Standard membervivify
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    01 Apr '17 19:182 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    In the OP he's pretending to be someone else, so she's given a different person consent. I don't see the relevance of income to a one night stand. If this is meant to be a relationship then it's off to a bad start if it starts with lies.
    Good point about the OP. Regarding lies about income, it can be argued that consent was based on the information given.
  5. Joined
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    01 Apr '17 19:211 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    There's an 80's comedy that was popular at the time called "Revenge of the Nerds", where geeky students get revenge on their bullies.

    Near the end, there's a scene where one of the nerds dresses up in a Darth Vader costume, and pretends to be the boyfriend (who is also one of the bullies) of a girl he likes. She has sex with him while the nerd's mask is s ...[text shortened]... be some type of crime here (hopefully some law experts here can help me out). But...is it rape?
    it's rape.
    he knows who she wants to have sex with. he knows damn well she wouldn't give consent if she knew who was behind that mask. it's rape.
  6. Zugzwang
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    01 Apr '17 19:231 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    There's an 80's comedy that was popular at the time called "Revenge of the Nerds", where geeky students get revenge on their bullies.

    Near the end, there's a scene where one of the nerds dresses up in a Darth Vader costume, and pretends to be the boyfriend (who is also one of the bullies) of a girl he likes. She has sex with him while the nerd's mask is s ...[text shortened]... be some type of crime here (hopefully some law experts here can help me out). But...is it rape?
    Whether that act met the then legal definition of rape depends upon its time and jurisdiction.
    There might have been no law against rape by deception in that time and place.
    At that time (1984), some US states had no laws against rape in marriage, so it was
    not illegal there for a man to force his wife to submit to sexual intercourse with him.

    And if one wishes to go back further, one can find many cases of acts that would be
    regarded as rape today but were not regarded as rape then. For example, the Bible
    has passages apparently approving of men raping women conquered in war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    "In 2008, it was reported that a Massachusetts woman, Marissa Lee-Fuentes,
    unknowingly had sex with her boyfriend's brother in the dark basement that she was
    sleeping in. He could not be prosecuted because Massachusetts law requires that rape
    include the use of force.[6][7] Massachusetts State House Representative Peter
    Koutoujian crafted rape-by-fraud legislation in response,[8] but it did not pass because
    legislators found the law to be too broad.

    In Norwalk, California, on February 20, 2009, Julio Morales snuck into a sleeping 18-year-old woman's
    darkened bedroom after he saw her boyfriend leave. The woman said she awoke to the sensation
    of someone having sex with her and assumed it was her boyfriend. When a ray of light
    hit Morales's face, and the woman saw he was not her boyfriend, she fought back and
    Morales fled. The woman called her boyfriend, who then called the police. Julio Morales
    was convicted of rape under two concepts. He was guilty of rape because he began
    having sex with the woman while she was still asleep and, therefore, unable to consent.
    He was also guilty of rape-by-fraud because he had impersonated the woman's boyfriend
    in order to gain her consent. However, an appellate court ruled that the lower court had misread
    the 1872 law criminalizing rape-by-fraud. The law stated a man is guilty of rape-by-fraud
    if he impersonates a woman's husband in order to get her consent. The woman in this case
    was not married, and Morales had impersonated her boyfriend, not her husband. Because of
    this one technicality, the appellate court overturned Julio Morales's rape-by-trickery conviction
    in People vs. Morales in 2013."
  7. Zugzwang
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    01 Apr '17 21:492 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought to Vivify
    In the OP he's pretending to be someone else, so she's given a different person consent.
    I don't see the relevance of income to a one night stand.
    If this is meant to be a relationship then it's off to a bad start if it starts with lies.
    In some cases, consent to sexual intercourse may be given *conditionally*.
    Should it be considered rape if someone lies about that condition to have sexual intercourse?

    As I recall, there was a case like this:
    He: I want to sleep with you now. All right?
    She: Yes, but I'm worried about birth control. I'm not on the pill and you don't have a condom.
    He: Don't worry. I had a vasectomy (he's lying). So let's do it!
    She: OK, as long as you're sure that I don't have to worry about falling pregnant.

    Later, she discovered that she had been impregnated and that the man had lied to her.
    She accused him of rape on the grounds that she would not have consented to sexual
    intercourse if he had not deceived her.
  8. Standard memberDeepThought
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    02 Apr '17 03:27
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In some cases, consent to sexual intercourse may be given *conditionally*.
    Should it be considered rape if someone lies about that condition to have sexual intercourse?

    As I recall, there was a case like this:
    He: I want to sleep with you now. All right?
    She: Yes, but I'm worried about birth control. I'm not on the pill and you don't have a condom. ...[text shortened]... he grounds that she would not have consented to sexual
    intercourse if he had not deceived her.
    Well yes, but that is relevant. What I don't see is the relevance of how wealthy someone is.
  9. Standard membershavixmir
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    02 Apr '17 06:41
    Originally posted by vivify
    There's an 80's comedy that was popular at the time called "Revenge of the Nerds", where geeky students get revenge on their bullies.

    Near the end, there's a scene where one of the nerds dresses up in a Darth Vader costume, and pretends to be the boyfriend (who is also one of the bullies) of a girl he likes. She has sex with him while the nerd's mask is s ...[text shortened]... be some type of crime here (hopefully some law experts here can help me out). But...is it rape?
    In Europe it's rape and a couple of other charges as well (impostering, etc.).
  10. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    02 Apr '17 18:15
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In some cases, consent to sexual intercourse may be given *conditionally*.
    Should it be considered rape if someone lies about that condition to have sexual intercourse?

    As I recall, there was a case like this:
    He: I want to sleep with you now. All right?
    She: Yes, but I'm worried about birth control. I'm not on the pill and you don't have a condom. ...[text shortened]... he grounds that she would not have consented to sexual
    intercourse if he had not deceived her.
    I don't think it's rape, she clearly wanted sex with him, she just didn't want to get pregnant. I can see a civil lawsuit for damages resulting from misrepresenting himself as sterile.
    The original op on the other hand is probably a rape given that she did not consent to sex with him, but with who pretended to be, don't think it would at all funny in real life.
  11. Cape Town
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    02 Apr '17 19:52
    I wouldn't call the OP case rape, but then I am not overly hung up over definitions. Its clearly wrong, and should be punishable in a court of law. It don't think it should matter that much what it is called.

    The lying about income one, I don't think should be punishable at all.
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Apr '17 20:09
    Yes
  13. Zugzwang
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    02 Apr '17 20:193 edits
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    I don't think it's rape, she clearly wanted sex with him, she just didn't want to get pregnant.
    I can see a civil lawsuit for damages resulting from misrepresenting himself as sterile.
    The original op on the other hand is probably a rape given that she did not consent to
    sex with him, but with who pretended to be, don't think it would at all funny in real life.
    "I don't think it's rape, she clearly wanted sex with him."
    --Kevcvs57

    It's not only a question of a woman being willing to have sexual intercourse with a particular man.
    It's a question of a woman being willing to have sexual intercourse with a particular man *at a particular time*.
    A woman may be willing to have sexual ntercourse with a man when he uses a condom
    and be unwlling when he's not using it.

    She may have consensual sexual intercourse with him before or after that particular time.
    But if her consent was obtained *only by deception* (fraud) at that particular time, then,
    depending upon the laws, it could be regarded as rape.

    "... she just didn't want to get pregnant."
    --Kevcvs57

    Shouldn't a woman's worry about unwanted pregnancy be regarded as an important,
    if not decisive, relevant factor in her decision to consent to sexual intercourse?
    What if the man had lied to her about being HIV+ or having another STD?
  14. Subscriberkevcvs57
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    03 Apr '17 12:46
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "I don't think it's rape, she clearly wanted sex with him."
    --Kevcvs57

    It's not only a question of a woman being willing to have sexual intercourse with a particular man.
    It's a question of a woman being willing to have sexual intercourse with a particular man *at a particular time*.
    A woman may be willing to have sexual ntercourse with a man when h ...[text shortened]... to sexual intercourse?
    What if the man had lied to her about being HIV+ or having another STD?
    "Shouldn't a woman's worry about unwanted pregnancy be regarded as an important,
    if not decisive, relevant factor in her decision to consent to sexual intercourse?
    What if the man had lied to her about being HIV+ or having another STD?"


    Yes it should be that's why I think she should raise a civil suit against this man for damages, or perhaps a criminal case for the physical and every other kind of harm caused by the pregnancy that he assured her could not occur due to his fertility status. Don't ask for details but I'm sure I remember a case where a person who knowingly had HIV was charged with a criminal offence for having unprotected sex with partners who were unaware of his HIV status. Some of his defenders who probably baulked at the idea of a witch hunt involving people with HIV claimed everyone was responsible for protecting themselves against exposure to stds by only engaging in safe sex rather than the onus being on the person with the potential to expose their partners to an std to divulge their status.
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    03 Apr '17 19:07
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    "Shouldn't a woman's worry about unwanted pregnancy be regarded as an important,
    if not decisive, relevant factor in her decision to consent to sexual intercourse?
    What if the man had lied to her about being HIV+ or having another STD?"


    Yes it should be that's why I think she should raise a civil suit against this man for damages, or perhaps a crim ...[text shortened]... ing on the person with the potential to expose their partners to an std to divulge their status.
    It's not rape if it doesn't meet the statutory definition of rape. It probably makes more sense to have sexual deception a different crime with different elements and different punishments then try to force all sexual behavior which we do not like into one crime.
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