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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    05 Dec '12 04:01
    What is it about the Democrat Party? This wasa Party whose leader once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country". Today, half the country receives some form of government assistance. This is a Party whose members cannot articulate what they believe, much less tie what they believe in back to the founding ideals of our country.

    Murder of the unborn. Achievement is derided. Economic success is loathed. Defending our Nation is unimportant. American values are not exceptional. Anger, resentment, and class envy are rampant. Public education is woeful. Government is bloated and unaccountable. The Constitution is irrelevant. People have decided that they are entitled to the wealth of others. Suspicion of government is gone and replaced by worship of government. An entire race of Americans is given just enough to keep their votes in one party's pocket. Borders are ignored. Laws are ignored. The values which made our country great are derided. The right to disagree is removed. Freedom of speech is removed.
  2. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    05 Dec '12 04:34
  3. 05 Dec '12 05:29
    "Freedom of speech is removed."

    If only.
  4. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    05 Dec '12 06:39 / 3 edits
    LOL, Comming from a idiot who will do anything NOT to pay his fair share of taxes. What a joke. I really hope they deport worthless people like you in the near future.

    Nite
  5. 05 Dec '12 09:58
    Just checked all the boxes on my Glenn Beck bingo card.
  6. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    05 Dec '12 13:10
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    LOL, Comming from a idiot who will do anything NOT to pay his fair share of taxes. What a joke. I really hope they deport worthless people like you in the near future.

    Nite
    Like I said before - I'm a W-2 worker, and I almost certainly paid more taxes than your entire income. You're not pulling your weight.
  7. 05 Dec '12 14:19 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Like I said before - I'm a W-2 worker, and I almost certainly paid more taxes than your entire income. You're not pulling your weight.
    Assuming you make more than the magical $200,000 mark you have become a target.

    As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the real debt is really around $86 trillion, but the government cooks the books and does not include all of the debt, especially in the form of Social Security and Medicare. Instead, we are spoon fed 16 trillion mark, not that it makes things much better. So whatever they do to the rich, whether they take everything they have, is really just a drop in the ocean. The bottom line is SPENDING, and since the GOP plays this game of cooking the books, I can only presume they are OK with the spending path of the US and have no real intention of tackling it a meaningful way. Until I see them tell the nation the truth, that the real debt is $86 trillion, I will just assume that each side is playing the talking points game and could care less.

    Furthermore, I'm sickened by all the talk about taxes having the power to depress or improve the economy. With the current spending the economy be damned, it is simply not sustainable. No economy could sustain it. Last year the unclaimed debt of both Social Security and Medicare came to around $7 trillion. All the rich people in the world could be taxed and not come up with that kind of money.

    So just get used to the talking points. The democrats will try to convince us that raising taxes on the rich will help fix the debt sitution and improve the economy and the GOP will try to convince us that lowering the taxes will help the economy and increase revenue to the governmnt by creating more jobs to help pay down the debt. Both are laughable.

    In the end, it all comes down to envy. The poor will always hate the rich and are increasing in number every day, so the democrats have the upper hand in talking points.

    Get used to it.
  8. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    05 Dec '12 15:13
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Like I said before - I'm a W-2 worker, and I almost certainly paid more taxes than your entire income. You're not pulling your weight.
    You have no idea how much taxes I pay or if I'm pulling my weight. Don't try and pretend you do. You're a loser and a joke. Always have been always will be.

    And for someone whose always claiming they work so hard and runs around judging others that they don't even know you sure got alot of free time. You're in this forum 24/7 talking your right wing crap. So tell us when and where do you work?
  9. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    05 Dec '12 15:17
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    You have no idea how much taxes I pay or if I'm pulling my weight. Don't try and pretend you do. You're a loser and a joke. Always have been always will be.

    And for someone whose always claiming they work so hard and runs around judging others that they don't even know you sure got alot of free time. You're in this forum 24/7 talking your right wing crap. So tell us when and where do you work?
    You've got a lot more explaining to do than I do.
  10. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    05 Dec '12 15:21
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    You've got a lot more explaining to do than I do.
    LOL, See there's that narcissistic behavior again. I don't have to explain a damn thing to you. You're NOBODY!!! You're nothing but a LOSER and a joke.
  11. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    05 Dec '12 15:22
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Like I said before - I'm a W-2 worker, and I almost certainly paid more taxes than your entire income. You're not pulling your weight.
    And for someone whose always claiming they work so hard and runs around judging others that they don't even know you sure got alot of free time. You're in this forum 24/7 talking your right wing crap. So tell us when and where do you work?
  12. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    05 Dec '12 20:03
    Originally posted by whodey
    Assuming you make more than the magical $200,000 mark you have become a target.

    As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the real debt is really around $86 trillion, but the government cooks the books and does not include all of the debt, especially in the form of Social Security and Medicare. Instead, we are spoon fed 16 trillion mark, not that it makes th ...[text shortened]... in number every day, so the democrats have the upper hand in talking points.

    Get used to it.
    You talk like the debt is owed to the Martians, or maybe the Universe or God.

    So, who owns the debt, whodey?

    Borrowing only happens if someone is willing to lend.
  13. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    05 Dec '12 20:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Assuming you make more than the magical $200,000 mark you have become a target.

    As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the real debt is really around $86 trillion, but the government cooks the books and does not include all of the debt, especially in the form of Social Security and Medicare. Instead, we are spoon fed 16 trillion mark, not that it makes th in number every day, so the democrats have the upper hand in talking points.

    Get used to it.
    Seems like I have alot to get used to today.

    Well, let's see. I'm trying to get you your $86 trillion - Obama's $20 trillion by the time he leaves office, plus the $64 trillion associated with Medicare and Social Security. I only get $84 trillion. So you're way off, delusional, and a liar. $86 trillion, we'd probably have to worry about. $84 trillion - no problem. I think you're inventing that $2 trillion to try and scare people.

    I wish you would stop harassing the liberals here. Numbers make their heads hurt, and they completely disregard facts. Don't you understand? What they feel is what matters. Logic, reason, and rationality have no place in this country anymore. Only anger, resentment, sound bites, and three-syllable bumper sticker slogans that people with IQs of 70 can digest. What you're doing is mean, like whacking a mentally challenged kid with a stick. It's unproductive.
  14. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    06 Dec '12 00:29
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I only get $84 trillion.
    This $84 trillion figure is the latest flavor of the week for you, it seems. Not long ago you were harping on about how "Obama is going to visit the Apocalypse upon planet Earth over a measly sum of money that would only run the federal government for two weeks!" Something like that.

    Before you buy the generators, bomb shelter, and 50-year supply of MREs, may I point out a few things?

    1) The $84 trillion in unfunded federal liabilities (principally Medicare and Social Security) is spread over 75 years, and so equals $1.12 trillion per year. Hmm. So maybe cutting in other areas could partially offset that. That fat military budget that's bigger than the defense budgets of the next 20 countries combined is a good candidate.

    2) The $84 trillion is not in 2012 dollars, but rather in the dollars of future years. In 2012 dollars the amount is $19 trillion. Still a large sum of dough, but not nearly as impressive as $84 trillion.

    3) The unfunded federal liability figure of $19 trillion in 2012 dollars assumes current funding rates for Medicare and Social Security. What the figure reflects is simply this: the Bush tax cuts were enacted without being paid for. This is the modus operandi of Republicans (listen carefully now): cut taxes on their wealthy benefactors, then claim we "can't afford" to fund "socialist" entitlement programs. Now be honest, doesn't that seem just a little bit duplicitous?



    You seem to like No1marauder whole lots, and recently he posted a link to this document: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/solvency/BSanders_20110907.pdf

    I've looked over it. The document makes the case that Social Security can be kept solvent for the next 75 years solely with the proposed repeal of the Bush tax cuts for those making over $250,000 per annum. Poof - there goes a big chunk of that $19 trillion in unfunded liabilities. So the world may not end after all!

    As for Medicare, there too it's unreasonable to expect that current funding levels will continue for the next 75 years. It would be ridiculous to assume that. In my view Medicare should become the "public option" for those who find private insurers too expensive or otherwise undesirable. Having more and younger (read: healthier) people on Medicare paying regular premiums could by itself go a long way toward keeping Medicare solvent.
  15. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    06 Dec '12 00:42
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    This $84 trillion figure is the latest flavor of the week for you, it seems. Not long ago you were harping on about how "Obama is going to visit the Apocalypse upon planet Earth over a measly sum of money that would only run the federal government for two weeks!" Something like that.

    Before you buy the generators, bomb shelter, and 50-year supp ...[text shortened]... ing regular premiums could by itself go a long way toward keeping Medicare solvent.
    I hope you'll forgive me if I'm not inclined to regard a document produced by the Social Security Administration regarding the viability of Social Security as eminently reliable. I offer a more realistic estimation.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636.html

    By CHRIS COX AND BILL ARCHER

    A decade and a half ago, both of us served on President Clinton's Bipartisan Commission on Entitlement and Tax Reform, the forerunner to President Obama's recent National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. In 1994 we predicted that, unless something was done to control runaway entitlement spending, Medicare and Social Security would eventually go bankrupt or confront severe benefit cuts.

    Eighteen years later, nothing has been done. Why? The usual reason is that entitlement reform is the third rail of American politics. That explanation presupposes voter demand for entitlements at any cost, even if it means bankrupting the nation.

    A better explanation is that the full extent of the problem has remained hidden from policy makers and the public because of less than transparent government financial statements. How else could responsible officials claim that Medicare and Social Security have the resources they need to fulfill their commitments for years to come?

    As Washington wrestles with the roughly $600 billion "fiscal cliff" and the 2013 budget, the far greater fiscal challenge of the U.S. government's unfunded pension and health-care liabilities remains offstage. The truly important figures would appear on the federal balance sheet—if the government prepared an accurate one.

    But it hasn't. For years, the government has gotten by without having to produce the kind of financial statements that are required of most significant for-profit and nonprofit enterprises. The U.S. Treasury "balance sheet" does list liabilities such as Treasury debt issued to the public, federal employee pensions, and post-retirement health benefits. But it does not include the unfunded liabilities of Medicare, Social Security and other outsized and very real obligations.

    As a result, fiscal policy discussions generally focus on current-year budget deficits, the accumulated national debt, and the relationships between these two items and gross domestic product. We most often hear about the alarming $15.96 trillion national debt (more than 100% of GDP), and the 2012 budget deficit of $1.1 trillion (6.97% of GDP). As dangerous as those numbers are, they do not begin to tell the story of the federal government's true liabilities.

    Enlarge Image

    David Klein
    The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion. Nothing like that figure is used in calculating the deficit. In reality, the reported budget deficit is less than one-fifth of the more accurate figure.

    Why haven't Americans heard about the titanic $86.8 trillion liability from these programs? One reason: The actual figures do not appear in black and white on any balance sheet. But it is possible to discover them. Included in the annual Medicare Trustees' report are separate actuarial estimates of the unfunded liability for Medicare Part A (the hospital portion), Part B (medical insurance) and Part D (prescription drug coverage).

    As of the most recent Trustees' report in April, the net present value of the unfunded liability of Medicare was $42.8 trillion. The comparable balance sheet liability for Social Security is $20.5 trillion.

    Were American policy makers to have the benefit of transparent financial statements prepared the way public companies must report their pension liabilities, they would see clearly the magnitude of the future borrowing that these liabilities imply. Borrowing on this scale could eclipse the capacity of global capital markets—and bankrupt not only the programs themselves but the entire federal government.

    These real-world impacts will be felt when currently unfunded liabilities need to be paid. In theory, the Medicare and Social Security trust funds have at least some money to pay a portion of the bills that are coming due. In actuality, the cupboard is bare: 100% of the payroll taxes for these programs were spent in the same year they were collected.

    In exchange for the payroll taxes that aren't paid out in benefits to current retirees in any given year, the trust funds got nonmarketable Treasury debt. Now, as the baby boomers' promised benefits swamp the payroll-tax collections from today's workers, the government has to swap the trust funds' nonmarketable securities for marketable Treasury debt. The Treasury will then have to sell not only this debt, but far more, in order to pay the benefits as they come due.

    When combined with funding the general cash deficits, these multitrillion-dollar Treasury operations will dominate the capital markets in the years ahead, particularly given China's de-emphasis of new investment in U.S. Treasurys in favor of increasing foreign direct investment, and Japan's and Europe's own sovereign-debt challenges.

    When the accrued expenses of the government's entitlement programs are counted, it becomes clear that to collect enough tax revenue just to avoid going deeper into debt would require over $8 trillion in tax collections annually. That is the total of the average annual accrued liabilities of just the two largest entitlement programs, plus the annual cash deficit.

    Nothing like that $8 trillion amount is available for the IRS to target. According to the most recent tax data, all individuals filing tax returns in America and earning more than $66,193 per year have a total adjusted gross income of $5.1 trillion. In 2006, when corporate taxable income peaked before the recession, all corporations in the U.S. had total income for tax purposes of $1.6 trillion. That comes to $6.7 trillion available to tax from these individuals and corporations under existing tax laws.

    In short, if the government confiscated the entire adjusted gross income of these American taxpayers, plus all of the corporate taxable income in the year before the recession, it wouldn't be nearly enough to fund the over $8 trillion per year in the growth of U.S. liabilities. Some public officials and pundits claim we can dig our way out through tax increases on upper-income earners, or even all taxpayers. In reality, that would amount to bailing out the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon. Only by addressing these unsustainable spending commitments can the nation's debt and deficit problems be solved.

    Neither the public nor policy makers will be able to fully understand and deal with these issues unless the government publishes financial statements that present the government's largest financial liabilities in accordance with well-established norms in the private sector. When the new Congress convenes in January, making the numbers clear—and establishing policies that finally address them before it is too late—should be a top order of business.

    Mr. Cox, a former chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee and the Securities and Exchange Commission, is president of Bingham Consulting LLC. Mr. Archer, a former chairman of the House Ways & Means Committee, is a senior policy adviser at PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.

    A version of this article appeared November 27, 2012, on page A17 in the U.S. edition of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: Why $16 Trillion Only Hints at the True U.S. Debt.