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  1. 28 Mar '17 22:58 / 4 edits
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/paris-clashes-police-killing-chinese-man-injured-46414101

    "Police killing exposes anger, fear of Chinese in France."

    " France is home to Europe's largest population of ethnic Chinese, a community
    that routinely accuses police of not doing enough to protect it from racism.

    In September, 15,000 people rallied in the French capital to urge an
    end to violence against the Asian community after the beating death of
    Chinese tailor Chaolin Zhangh called attention to ethnic tensions in
    Paris immigrant suburbs. The victim's lawyer said the August 2016
    attack was ethnically motivated.

    "Chinese are victims of racist attitudes in France, especially from other
    ethnic groups," Pierre Picquart, an expert on China at the University of
    Paris VIII, said. "They are targets for crime because they often carry
    cash and many don't have residence permits, so can be threatened
    easily. They're angry with police for not protecting them enough."
    "Chinese people do not like to protest or express themselves publicly,
    so when we see them like this, it means they are very, very angry.
    They've had enough of discrimination," Picquart added."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/28/police-and-protesters-clash-in-paris-over-death-of-chinese-man

    "Police and protesters clash in Paris over death of Chinese man."

    "Shaoyo Liu, 56, was allegedly shot in front of his children while he was
    cutting up fish. Police say the officer involved in a raid on the property
    on Sunday fired in self-defence after Liu wounded an officer with a “bladed weapon”.

    Liu’s family says it “totally disputes” this account. His daughter told
    French journalists her father spoke little French and had been at the
    door of their home holding a pair of scissors that he had been using to
    descale fish for the family dinner.

    “Around 8pm my little sister heard a knock at the door. She looked
    through the glass and she saw two men and a woman who were armed,”
    she said. “My father went to the door with the scissors he was using for
    the fish. The knocks on the door got louder and louder. I shouted, ‘calm
    down, make less noise,’ but they took no notice.

    “They smashed the door in, the shot went off and my father ended up
    on the floor,” she told Le Parisien." "

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/world/europe/paris-police-shooting-chinese.html

    "France Investigating Police Killing of Chinese Man in Paris"

    "“I understand the anger in the community,” Mr. Job said in an interview.
    Several of his clients of Asian ancestry had complained of police violence recently, he said."

    "The deadly beating last year of Chang Chaolin, a tailor who had lived
    in France for a decade, drew attention to security concerns in Aubervilliers,
    the northern suburb where he resided. That case highlighted a pocket of racial conflict in France."

    "But Tamara Lui, president of the community organization Chinese in France,
    said the population had not seen a noticeable change in the security situation, saying
    she was astonished by the “disproportionate force” used by the police against Mr. Liu."

    Ethnic Chinese minorities tend to be very long-suffering and averse to making public complaints,
    so when Chinese do make public protests, it shows that their situation has become extremely unbearable.

    Do Chinese lives matter? I doubt that France's government (which is racist or panders to racists)
    sincerely cares at all, but perhaps France will make a token effort at public relations
    'damage control' on account of its fear of economic retaliation by China. It's a shame
    that ethnic Chinese residents (including citizens) of France may have to appeal to China
    to help defend their legal and human rights in France rather than appealing to the supposed
    French principles of 'liberty, equality, and fraternity' for everyone--but that's the nature of racism.

    Can the 'Asian Lives Matter' movement draw as much support as the 'Black Lives Matter' movement?
  2. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    28 Mar '17 23:26
    Yes, this was covered on the BBC website. It seems odd to send armed police to a domestic.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39416804
  3. 29 Mar '17 00:45 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Yes, this was covered on the BBC website. It seems odd to send armed police to a domestic.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39416804
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37720780

    "A killing in Paris: Why French Chinese are in uproar."

    "David Liu, a Chinese Frenchman, says he walks around Paris with "fear in his chest".
    The 22-year-old student was assaulted and robbed by a gang of youths in a side street when he was in primary school.
    It was a long time ago, but he still crosses the road if a large group of people are coming his way.
    After all, everyone in his family has been targeted in a similar fashion.

    France's ethnic Chinese population have long suffered casual racism and been stereotyped
    as easy targets for crime. But they say they have now reached breaking point.
    In August, 49-year-old tailor and father-of-two Zhang Chaolin died in hospital after being attacked
    by three teenagers. He had been walking in a quiet street in the north Paris suburb of Aubervilliers."

    "David was born in Paris to parents who migrated from China in the early 1990s.
    He says he has been asked publicly if he eats dogs, and has been called a "spring roll head".
    He has also been told to "go back to his own country" and "go and work with his little Chinese hands".
    Such jibes might be familiar to east Asian migrants and their descendants across the West.
    As with British Chinese, French Chinese say that racist comments toward them are
    tolerated, in a way that they are not for more established migrant communities."

    Overt anti-Asian racism seems much more condoned than overt anti-black racism in the USA
    because Asian-Americans have much less political influence than African-Americans.

    "Rui Wang, the son of Wenzhounese migrants and president of the Association of French-Chinese Youth, belies the stereotypes.
    Born in China but raised in France, he casually quotes French philosophers and sociologists like
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Pierre Bourdieu. Articulate and driven, he has written to
    Prime Minister Manuel Valls to warn him that the situation in places like Aubervilliers is "explosive".
    He describes how husbands will pick up their wives and children from metro stations and
    schools in groups of five to six people for safety reasons."

    "Frederic Chau, the actor, feels the same way. He describes his family home's doormat
    as being like a border between France and China when he was growing up:
    "I rejected my origins, I wanted to be whiter than white".
    Now, he has fully embraced his Cambodian and Chinese origins, and is proud of them.
    What France's Asians want now, Frederic says, is to be "considered French'."

    Marine le Pen's many supporters presumably never will regard Asians in France as 'really French'.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 Mar '17 01:02
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Yes, this was covered on the BBC website. It seems odd to send armed police to a domestic.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39416804
    I don't know the data from across the pond but:

    As most law enforcement officers have been informed during their training or know intuitively from working the streets, and as this data supports, Domestic Dispute calls, or intra-family offenses, were the most dangerous type of call for the responding officers.

    The analysis of calls for service that were classified as Domestic Dispute accounted for 20 of the 91 calls for service, or 22 percent, that resulted in an officer fatality. In all but one of the cases studied, the responding officers were killed with a firearm.

    http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/officer-safety/Primary_Research_Final_11-0_updated_8_31_16.pdf
  5. 29 Mar '17 01:38
    Originally posted by no1marauder to DeepThought
    I don't know the data from across the pond but:

    As most law enforcement officers have been informed during their training or know intuitively from working the streets, and as this data supports, Domestic Dispute calls, or intra-family offenses, were the most dangerous type of call for the responding officers.

    The analysis of calls fo ...[text shortened]... http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/officer-safety/Primary_Research_Final_11-0_updated_8_31_16.pdf
    The French police often have been accused of racist abuse.
    The most infamous incident was the 1961 massacre of Algerians in Paris.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

    Here's a recent incident of alleged racist abuse.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/11/a-black-man-accused-french-police-of-raping-him-police-claim-it-was-an-accident/?utm_term=.4b2aef4a7308

    "A black man accused French police of raping him. Police claim it was an accident."

    "While noting that the violent encounter was “very serious,” the investigation by France’s
    national police force determined that the incident was “not a rape” because of the
    “unintentional character” of the penetration, according to Huffington Post's French edition.

    Despite those conclusions, French Interior Minister Bruno Le Roux announced Sunday
    that one officer faces aggravated rape charges and three others have been charged with
    aggravated assault, according to the Independent. The men deny the charges and have
    been suspended from the police force, the paper reported."
  6. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    29 Mar '17 05:13
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't know the data from across the pond but:

    As most law enforcement officers have been informed during their training or know intuitively from working the streets, and as this data supports, Domestic Dispute calls, or intra-family offenses, were the most dangerous type of call for the responding officers.

    The analysis of calls for service that ...[text shortened]... http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/officer-safety/Primary_Research_Final_11-0_updated_8_31_16.pdf
    If it were the UK then the police would not turn up with guns for a domestic, unless they had some reason to believe the householder had one.
    In France in the aftermath of the Paris attack the police have started carrying them off duty. I doubt that they would expect that much trouble from a domestic, it seems like excessive force by European standards. I don't have statistics for injury rates to officers attending domestic incidents though.
  7. 29 Mar '17 20:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought to No1Marauder
    If it were the UK then the police would not turn up with guns for a domestic, unless they had some reason to believe the householder had one.
    In France in the aftermath of the Paris attack the police have started carrying them off duty. I doubt that they would expect that much trouble from a domestic, it seems like excessive force by Eur ...[text shortened]... ards. I don't have statistics for injury rates to officers attending domestic incidents though.
    I would add that France's gun laws are much more restrictive than US gun laws,
    so the French police should have much less fear of being shot by ordinary people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_France

    His family claims that the Chinese man killed by the French police carried only scissors.
    Given that the French police claimed that he attempted to attack them with a 'bladed' object,
    not explicitly calling it a 'knife', the implication is that he was *not* even carrying a knife.

    It's hard to believe that even *if* a 56 year old Chinese man had lunged with scissors at
    several French policemen with guns, it was absolutely necessary to shoot him dead at once.
    Why could not all these French policemen have found a way to apprehend him without deadly force?
  8. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    29 Mar '17 22:15
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I would add that France's gun laws are much more restrictive than US guns laws,
    so the French police should have much less fear of being shot by ordinary people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_France

    His family claims that the Chinese man killed by the French police carried only scissors.
    Given that the French police claimed that he att ...[text shortened]... Why could not all these French policemen have found a way to apprehend him without deadly force?
    Yes, I'd looked at that page before making my post. What it didn't contain was a statistic on incidence of gun ownership in France, which would have allowed me to make a guess at how likely the police were to have felt they needed an armed response.

    What this seems to hang on is not the outcome in this case, but what the outcome would have been had Mr Liu been ethnically French. I'm wondering whether they would have been called in the first place, since from the families description there is no strong evidence for a domestic. I'm also wondering whether the police would have felt the need to break down the door with firearms at the ready. So the question becomes have there been similar incidents involving people who are ethically French and what were the outcomes in those cases?
  9. 30 Mar '17 01:18
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Yes, I'd looked at that page before making my post. What it didn't contain was a statistic on incidence of gun ownership in France, which would have allowed me to make a guess at how likely the police were to have felt they needed an armed response.

    What this seems to hang on is not the outcome in this case, but what the outcome would have been had M ...[text shortened]... r incidents involving people who are ethically French and what were the outcomes in those cases?
    As far as I can infer, no one in the family called the police to complain about a domestic dispute.
    My guess is that someone overheard loud talking (or perhaps arguing) in Chinese and,
    not comprehending the language and perhaps motivated by racist paranoia, jumped to
    the conclusion that there was a violent domestic dispute and reported it to the police.