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  1. 25 Apr '10 03:29 / 1 edit
    I read a rather interesting article about Israel and socialism

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html

    It is an article that is accuses Israel of being "proped up". First it was proped up by war reporations from Germany and now by the US. However, even at that this socialist regime, as are all others, is spent into the ground.

    The article was written in 2002 and makes the claim that the US gives enough aid to Israel to equal around $1000 per citizen in Israel. If it were not for this aid, the article claims, Israel would have become insolvent long ago as a consequence for their socialist policies.

    What interested me the most, however, is the implication that meaningful reform is being thwarted by socialism itself. The article states:

    "Israel, a socialist Sparta, could never adopt radical free market reforms and still retain its identity as a distinctively Jewish state. Multiculturalism - in the truest, and only meaningful sense of that much abused term - is the inevitable result of free commerce: laissez-faire dissolves artificial boundaries of race and religion and divides the world up into national geographic and economic units. It also tends to wash away irrational prejudices, which soon become economically not viable. In undergoing a free market revolution - not just privatizing garbage collection and legalizing cloning, but unchaining the small private sector, eliminating religious-based immigration, and dismantling the Israeli welfare state, including the settlements - Israel would become something completely other than what its founders envisioned; a free market Athens where religion is entirely a private affair."

    Of course, I don't agree with everything in the article, especially the bit about the US telling Israel what to do, but I will say that I had never considered part of the solution as making Israel a true free market country. Would it help improve the current situation? I suggest they figure it out pretty quick because the US is on a road to nowhere economically as it has increasingly adopted socialist policies that will soon drag it into an economic abyss as well. The money train that goes from Washington to Jerusalem will dry up eventually. Where will they be then?
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    25 Apr '10 03:59 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    I read a rather interesting article about Israel and socialism

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html

    It is an article that is accuses Israel of being "proped up". First it was proped up by war reporations from Germany and now by the US. However, even at that this socialist regime, as are all others, is spent into the ground.

    The article was in that goes from Washington to Jerusalem will dry up eventually. Where will they be then?


    Why you of all people would take something on antiwar.com seriously is somewhat perplexing, but I digress.

    First of all, US annual aid to Israel is about $2.5b

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif

    Israel's population is about 7.5 million people.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3877574,00.html

    For those of you who are math-averse, that's about $333 per person; not $1,000 per person.

    For a country with a per capita income of $37,000 and a per capita GDP of about $29,000, does an assertion that Israel would be insolvent without $333/person aid pass the straight face test? No, it does not.

    As for Israel's economic policies, I'd put it's economic philosophy somewhere slightly to the left of the US, but to the right of many European countries.

    Calling Israel a "socialist Sparta" is mindless propaganda. If you want to read about the products of Israeli capitalism, you can start here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_economy

    That paragraph you cited is hogwash. Israel is a capitalist economy; religious based immigration is the only thing in that paragraph with a grain of truth; and it is almost irrelevant to the Israeli economy. Israel allows plenty of non-Jewish immigration; it just isn't automatic.

    As for Israel's welfare state, the benefits flow to essentially to two groups: The ultra-religious and Israeli Arabs. If you were to eliminate those 2 groups from the equation, the Israeli economy would be on par with the US and the stronger European economies; and stronger than any third World country.

    I've never seen a greater example of a full article full of mindless drivel in my life. Read that article carefully. It's all about how Israel is alternatively parasites and Nazis.

    Seriously, Whodey, I'm disappointed. How could you take that nonsense seriously?
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    25 Apr '10 04:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    I read a rather interesting article about Israel and socialism

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html

    It is an article that is accuses Israel of being "proped up". First it was proped up by war reporations from Germany and now by the US. However, even at that this socialist regime, as are all others, is spent into the ground.

    The article was ...[text shortened]... in that goes from Washington to Jerusalem will dry up eventually. Where will they be then?
    I'm looking at some of the other "articles" on that site. Look at the post 9/11 drivel this conspiracy nut/anti-Semitic hatemonger puts out.

    Really, Whodey, really.

    Go back and read some of his other stuff and then come back and tell me you afford that clown a scintilla of credibility.

    I double dog dare you.
  4. 25 Apr '10 04:16
    Originally posted by sh76


    Why you of all people would take something on antiwar.com seriously is somewhat perplexing, but I digress.

    First of all, US annual aid to Israel is about $2.5b

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif

    Israel's population is about 7.5 million people.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3877574,00.html

    For those of you who ...[text shortened]...

    Seriously, Whodey, I'm disappointed. How could you take that nonsense seriously?
    As I said, I did not agree with everything in the article, however, I thought perhaps they made some valid points. Just so you know, I don't necessarily post things because I believe them, rather, I post them to debate them.

    Having said that, I think it useful to post things like this in order to help expose the disinformation out there.....that is unless anyone disagrees with sh76's assessement.
  5. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    25 Apr '10 04:16
    Originally posted by whodey
    I read a rather interesting article about Israel and socialism

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html

    It is an article that is accuses Israel of being "proped up". First it was proped up by war reporations from Germany and now by the US. However, even at that this socialist regime, as are all others, is spent into the ground.

    The article was ...[text shortened]... in that goes from Washington to Jerusalem will dry up eventually. Where will they be then?
    I tend to agree, open free markets where the other fellows money is as good as yours breaks down barriers.

    "If men want to oppose war, it is statism that they must oppose. So long as they hold the tribal notion that the individual is sacrificial fodder for the collective, that some men have the right to rule others by force, and that some (any) alleged ‘good’ can justify it—there can be no peace within a nation and no peace among nations.”

    If you can't guess the author you might have to google it.
  6. 25 Apr '10 04:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    I'm looking at some of the other "articles" on that site. Look at the post 9/11 drivel this conspiracy nut/anti-Semitic hatemonger puts out.

    Really, Whodey, really.

    Go back and read some of his other stuff and then come back and tell me you afford that clown a scintilla of credibility.

    I double dog dare you.


    My, its lovely weather we are having isn't it?

    BTW: I have not been double dogged dared in quite some time.
  7. 25 Apr '10 04:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I tend to agree, open free markets where the other fellows money is as good as yours breaks down barriers.

    "If men want to oppose war, it is statism that they must oppose. So long as they hold the tribal notion that the individual is sacrificial fodder for the collective, that some men have the right to rule others by force, and that some (any) alleged ‘ ...[text shortened]... ion and no peace among nations.”

    If you can't guess the author you might have to google it.
    So do you think Israel needs to "break down some barriers"? If so, which?
  8. 25 Apr '10 05:10
    Originally posted by sh76


    Why you of all people would take something on antiwar.com seriously is somewhat perplexing, but I digress.

    First of all, US annual aid to Israel is about $2.5b

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif

    Israel's population is about 7.5 million people.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3877574,00.html

    For those of you who ...[text shortened]...

    Seriously, Whodey, I'm disappointed. How could you take that nonsense seriously?
    Perhaps we can begin a debate as to why Israel is such a target regarding propaganda like this article. Why is Israel such a target in your opinion?
  9. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    25 Apr '10 05:28 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Perhaps we can begin a debate as to why Israel is such a target regarding propaganda like this article. Why is Israel such a target in your opinion?
    What's there to debate on the matter of "why"?

    Israel is the subject of whitewashing propaganda by its boosters as well as being the target of demonizing propaganda. Immunity to facts and reason is rife on both sides. People seeking solutions and compromise are denounced on BOTH sides for being on the other side.

    The country - due to the way it was established, and the way it goes about trying to secure itself, and the way that its opponents deal with these things - is a key to one of the world's biggest and most long standing geopolitical problems.

    There's little mileage in debating "why" there are articles like the one you have cited ... the debate surrounding Israel littered - choked, some might say - with propaganda on both sides.
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    25 Apr '10 13:22
    Originally posted by whodey
    Perhaps we can begin a debate as to why Israel is such a target regarding propaganda like this article. Why is Israel such a target in your opinion?
    Because there are people that hate Israel, for whatever reason.

    I'm sure you could find an equal* number of propaganda articles targeting the US, Islam, Christianity, Europe, White People, Black People, China, and all the other lightning rods that exist out there.





    * Well, maybe not equal, but you get my point, hopefully.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    25 Apr '10 13:24
    Originally posted by FMF
    Israel is the subject of whitewashing propaganda by its boosters as well as being the target of demonizing propaganda. Immunity to facts and reason is rife on both sides. People seeking solutions and compromise are denounced on BOTH sides for being on the other side.

    The country - due to the way it was established, and the way it goes about trying to s ...[text shortened]... e things - is a key to one of the world's biggest and most long standing geopolitical problems.
    Seconded.

    Well put.
  12. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    25 Apr '10 18:50
    I don't think a nation that builds walls to exclude ethnic groups can actually be called socialist.

    I have a horrible feeling there are some pretty ignorant right-wing morons who mis-use the term socialism for anything they want.

    Look up what socialism is. Then compare it to Israel. Then you will see the two have nothing in common.

    Except the Kibbutz.
  13. 26 Apr '10 02:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    Because there are people that hate Israel, for whatever reason.

    I'm sure you could find an equal* number of propaganda articles targeting the US, Islam, Christianity, Europe, White People, Black People, China, and all the other lightning rods that exist out there.





    * Well, maybe not equal, but you get my point, hopefully.
    Well that is a well spoken politically correct statement....but of course, you know I detest political correctness. I prefer the truth over polictical correctness.

    Having said that, how many posts do you see about China on these boards? How many posts do you see of Europeans? How many other "lightening rods" are on these boards compared to the Zionists? In fact, how many in the news every day do you see compared to the Zionists?
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    26 Apr '10 02:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    How many other "lightening rods" are on these boards compared to the Zionists?
    Israel is centre stage one of the world's biggest and most long standing geopolitical problems. People debate it because they recognize this even if you don't.
  15. 26 Apr '10 03:08
    Originally posted by FMF
    Israel is centre stage one of the world's biggest and most long standing geopolitical problems. People debate it because they recognize this even if you don't.
    So at least you admit that people discuss it more than all other geopolitical problems simply because it is "centre stage". I will agree that it is "centre stage", but I question the reason as being that it is becaue of the longevity of their problems. To accept this premise, I would have to assume then that Israel predates all other "geopolitical problems" as being the reason for it being centre stage. In addition, the magnitude and severity of geopolitical problems must have nothing to do with Israel being "centre stage". I assume this because Israel is not engaged in genocide as the Sudan is, for example, as millions have been sent to their death, yet Israel is the one discussed the most. To accept your premise, I would have to assume that for the Sudan to be centre stage instead of Israel, their problems would have to predate the zionist nation. Am I correct?