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  1. 16 Oct '14 22:41 / 3 edits
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/15/whiteness-project-privilege-documentary

    "The Whiteness Project will make you wince. Because white people can be rather awful."
    --Steven Thrasher (who describes himself as 'half-black and half-white' )

    The 'Whiteness Project' is a new interactive documentary launched by director Whitney Dow.

    "Whiteness, like all racial identities, is a relatively recent historical concept,
    conceived during European colonialism and American slavery as a way to
    empower poor whites with 'whiteness' and divide them politically and economically
    from other disenfranchised people."
    --Steven Thrasher
  2. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    17 Oct '14 02:52
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/15/whiteness-project-privilege-documentary

    "The Whiteness Project will make you wince. Because white people can be rather awful."
    --Steven Thrasher (who describes himself as 'half-black and half-white' )

    The 'Whiteness Project' is a new interactive documentary launched by director Whitney Dow.

    "W ...[text shortened]... ivide them politically and economically
    from other disenfranchised people."
    --Steven Thrasher
    What made you such a racist?
  3. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    17 Oct '14 19:21 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/15/whiteness-project-privilege-documentary

    "The Whiteness Project will make you wince. Because white people can be rather awful."
    --Steven Thrasher (who describes himself as 'half-black and half-white' )

    The 'Whiteness Project' is a new interactive documentary launched by director Whitney Dow.

    "W ...[text shortened]... ivide them politically and economically
    from other disenfranchised people."
    --Steven Thrasher
    Interesting you should bring this up. I've been reading newspapers for 40+ years, and the only stories on racism printed were when white men were guilty of it. Everyone else must be perfect in this area...right? I would suggest Duchess, that your attitude concerning white males qualifies you as a racist as well.
  4. 17 Oct '14 20:22 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by bill718
    Interesting you should bring this up. I've been reading newspapers for 40+ years, and the only stories on racism printed were when white men were guilty of it. Everyone else must be perfect in this area...right? I would suggest Duchess, that your attitude concerning white males qualifies you as a racist as well.
    For the record, Whitney Dow, the creator of the 'Whiteness Project', is a white American.
    Would all the white Americans ('conservative' and 'liberal' ) here who--with
    instant 'knee-jerk' reaction--have hastened (presumably without even having
    watched it) to condemn the 'Whiteness Project' as racist like to argue that
    Whitney Dow, a white American, must be an anti-white racist?

    "...the only stories on racism printed were when white men were guilty of it"
    --Bill718

    Then Bill718, a white American man, either is extremely ignorant or willfully
    (dishonestly) blind to the evidence. In fact, Uganda's leader, Idi Amin (a
    black African) was universally condemned in the Western media as a racist
    when he forcibly expelled Uganda's Asian minority and seized their property.
    In fact, Zimbabwe's leader, Robert Mugabe (a black African), has been often
    condemned in the Western media as a racist on account of his policies
    against the white farmers in Zimbabwe. Yet Bill718 apparently would like to
    to deny all that evidence (and much more) because he wants to believe that
    all white people (like himself) are always being unfairly criticized for being racist.

    Bill718, a self-described 'liberal' white American, again corroborates the
    beliefs of many non-white Americans that even many 'liberal' white Americans
    (such as Bill718) seem about as racist and dishonest about racism as
    'conservative' white Americans. At the end of the day, Bill718 might join
    the right-wing white American men here for drinks in a private club
    reserved exclusively for white men and whine together about how cruelly
    white men are being oppressed by all the benighted people who fail to
    recognize the great superiority of white men! Bill718 and right-wing white
    Americans have a common interest in denying American racism's existence.

    In another recent thread, Wolfgang59 has pointed out that Bill718's a troll.
    Bill718 already has quite a record of severely misrepresenting what I write
    and personally attacking me, and he's determined to add to that record.
    When Bill718 accuses me of having a racist attitude toward all 'white males',
    he's being extremely dishonest as usual. Apart from my friendships with
    white men in real life, at RHP I have been on friendly or at least cordial terms
    with various white men (including Finnegan and Teinosuke). Sasquatch672,
    a right-wing white American man with whom I disagree on most issues,
    has written that he and I always have been personally on civil terms.
    Bill718's apparent 'Duchess64 is racist against all white men' accusation is
    nonsense, which shows how much he has in common (dishonesty and bias)
    with many right-wing white Americans that he glibly professes to oppose.
    I have more respect for some 'conservative' white men here than for Bill718.
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Oct '14 23:05
    Claims about so called "reverse discrimination" are pretty general but make no sense.
    The truly worrying "reverse" action of our times is that which shifts responsibility for improving living conditions from government to citizens, ... Even as the wealthy tighten their fiscal grip, the onus of "making change happen" is shunted on to the shoulders of the disempowered.

    It may be inspiring for a group of inner-city girls to be told by Michelle Obama that they need only believe in themselves and work hard to make it to Oxbridge, but this flies in the face of institutional realities stacked against the economically disadvantaged ...

    Without redressing an economic system that enriches a minority by disadvantaging many, promoting social mobility through "aspiration" foments division, not cohesion. When some communities are accused of failing to integrate or receiving preferential treatment, the economic order of our times – with its obscene income differential between the top earners and the rest – is let off the hook.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/03/poor-white-britons-discrimination-not-racial
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Oct '14 23:13
    A fine article about why white Americans will not acknowledge the racism in their society gives a string of logical explanations which bear thinking about:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/the-real-reasons-many-whi_b_5721248.html
    ...empathy requires questioning one's reality. If I put myself completely in the shoes of Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown, or even a black man denied the opportunity to board a taxi cab, I must accept the reality that my world and my America isn't their world and their America.
    empathy inevitable leads to a myriad of unsavory emotions. With empathy comes responsibility and culpability, self-reflection, sometimes guilt, oftentimes anger, and almost always a certain amount of regret; especially if you voted for laws or supported a political system where racial disparities contradict ideals that are dear to your heart.
    it's difficult to place yourself in the shoes of another person who knows what it feels like to be followed in a convenience store by the owner, or asked if they really want to buy a certain item, or the hundreds of years of inequality that blacks have faced in our history. It's far easier to simply believe that your side is entirely right, your way of seeing the world is just, you work harder than those less fortunate, and that others are responsible entirely for their fate.
    it's easier to simply say "they did it to themselves," or "they're law breakers" or Michael Brown wasn't an angel so he deserved his fate.
    So, according to the conservative pundit, African-American teen mothers caused the loss of manufacturing jobs within inner cities, the 27 percent of poverty African-Americans face, the fact that the average black household has a net worth of just over $6,000 compared to over $90,000 for white households, the issue of longer sentences for the same crimes, and a host of other issues unrelated to the sexual habits of teenagers. Of course, you'll never hear from Fox News, Sean Hannity, or Bill O'Reilly that David T. Ellwood, dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, has explained that "less than 10 percent of welfare recipients live in big-city ghettos, so the bulk of the welfare problem cannot be attributed to the demoralizing effects of these communities." It's easier to blame the victim than it is to accept the fact that not everyone has a fair chance at success in America.
  7. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    17 Oct '14 23:19
    Originally posted by finnegan
    A fine article about why white Americans will not acknowledge the racism in their society gives a string of logical explanations which bear thinking about:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/the-real-reasons-many-whi_b_5721248.html
    ...empathy requires questioning one's reality. If I put myself completely in the shoes of Trayvon Martin or Mic ...[text shortened]... than it is to accept the fact that not everyone has a fair chance at success in America.
    You're part of the problem.

    Stop defining people by race.
  8. 17 Oct '14 23:33 / 3 edits
    Whitney Dow, a white American, created the 'Whiteness Project' as his
    way for *helping other white Americans* explore issues of racial identity.
    RJHinds, a right-wing white American (who has shown extreme racism) and
    Bill718, a self-described 'liberal' white American (who seems less overtly racist),
    obviously have no interest in learning anything new about such issues and they
    both apparently prefer to deny or minimize the existence of American racism.

    Given the common attitudes like theirs among white Americans, I am hardly
    surprised when many diverse non-white people (Africans, Asians) who have
    lived in the USA have told me that 'Americans are the most racist people in
    the world', which I like to believe is too simplistic and somewhat overstated.
    Nonetheless, the reality is that to be perceived as white in the United States
    tends to give one significant advantages and privileges that *all else being
    equal* (in terms of class, connections, education, etc.) non-white people lack.
    So I understand how deeply attached most white Americans are to their
    traditional superior power and privilege, and I know how fiercely most of them
    will keep doing their utmost to deny that they enjoy such power and privilege.

    In the article linked in my original post, Sam Markwell makes this comment:
    "...to do useful anti-racist work critiquing how racism works in white supremacist
    societies such as the US. On the other hand, the danger is always that it
    re-centers whites, who have long been at the center of social research in the US."

    Indeed, most white Americans seem to assume their norms are or should be universal.

    "Look at the f*** founding documents (of the United States). White supremacy
    is codified in them...and it's not unrealistic to think some of that still exists."
    --Whitney Dow

    I would submit it's more realistic to think that racism's thriving in all but name.

    David T. Wellman (a white American), a professor of sociology, has written a
    book _Portraits of White Racism_, based upon his interviews with white Americans.
    (He should interview several white American writers in this forum.) David Wellman
    concludes that American racism is *not* (as its apologists would have it)
    merely some ignorant prejudices among a few individuals; it's a set of culturally
    acceptable beliefs (if not also a politicized ideology, in my view) that support
    the advantages that white people enjoy for their 'whiteness' in the USA.
  9. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    17 Oct '14 23:56
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Whitney Dow, a white American, created the 'Whiteness Project' as his
    way for *helping other white Americans* explore issues of racial identity.
    RJHinds, a right-wing white American (who has shown extreme racism) and
    Bill718, a self-described 'liberal' white American (who seems less overtly racist),
    obviously have no interest in learning anything new ...[text shortened]... my view) that support
    the advantages that white people enjoy for their 'whiteness' in the USA.
    What is your system of race classification?

    You define various posters here as 'white'. I guess that makes others black?

    How do you, Duchess, define a persons race?

    You must have a standard, a line drawn, where a person crosses from one to the other, or do you have a system of gradation?
  10. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 Oct '14 00:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    What is your system of race classification?

    You define various posters here as 'white'. I guess that makes others black?

    How do you, Duchess, define a persons race?

    You must have a standard, a line drawn, where a person crosses from one to the other, or do you have a system of gradation?
    For example:

    New Zealand has two electoral roles, on for Maori and one for everyone else, the method of classifying people by race has changed over the history of the separate electoral roles. At one time the line was 50/50. If a person fell into this catergory it was for they themself to decide which side they came down on.

    Is this a proposition you'd entertain, i.e. allow people themselves to choose what race they are if they fell within certain giudlines?
  11. 18 Oct '14 00:23 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    What is your system of race classification?

    You define various posters here as 'white'. I guess that makes others black?

    How do you, Duchess, define a persons race?

    You must have a standard, a line drawn, where a person crosses from one to the other, or do you have a system of gradation?
    Many writers here have identified themselves as 'white' (explicitly or by
    saying all their recent ancestors were Europeans), and I have not chosen
    to dispute how they choose to identify themselves. I don't demand 'proof'
    of such identity in the form of recent photos or detailed ancestral trees.

    In the 1955 Hollywood Western 'Santa Fe Passage', the heroine's a
    self-described 'half-breed' (of which she feels ashamed), whose late white
    American father was a drunkard and a criminal and whose 'Indian' mother
    is the daughter of a tribal chief. Yet she identifies completely with white Americans
    and longs desperately to be accepted as a real woman--a 'pure' white woman.
    Indeed, she keeps lying about and concealing the identity of her mother,
    whom she pretends is her 'Indian' servant. The heroine falls for the hero,
    a white American man who's explicitly violently racist, professing his hatred
    of all 'Indians' and his disdain for all 'half-breeds'. He's attracted to her only
    because he assumes that she's white. After declaring his love for her, he
    instantly rejects her after discovering she's just a 'half-breed'. Given the
    Hollywood conventions in the deeply racist United States of 1955, however,
    there's a 'happy ending': the explicitly racist white American hero agrees to
    marry the 'half-breed' heroine who's deeply ashamed of her 'Indian' heritage.
    I suppose the happy couple would teach their children to consider themselves white.
    Wasn't that what was meant by assimilation into the American 'melting pot'?

    "I guess that makes others black?"
    --Wajoma

    Of course, Wajoma has guessed wrong.

    Tiger Woods is 1/2 East Asian (1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Thai), 1/4 black African,
    1/8 white European, and 1/8 native American by ancestry. He has said
    that if he had to choose only one label, he would consider himself 'Asian'.
    In the US media, however, Tiger Woods nearly always has been described
    as 'African-American' or 'black' and seldom as 'Asian-American' or 'Asian'.
  12. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 Oct '14 01:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64

    Of course, Wajoma has guessed wrong.

    .
    No doubt.

    A persons race is of no consequence to me, just trying to understand how it is for a person obsessed by the race of others.
  13. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    18 Oct '14 01:59
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    No doubt.

    A persons race is of no consequence to me, just trying to understand how it is for a person obsessed by the race of others.
    Duchess64 seems to classify people as either "white" or "other" - with "white" being evil.
  14. 18 Oct '14 20:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma to Finnegan
    You're part of the problem.
    Stop defining people by race.
    Wajoma seems determined to deny or obscure the realities of American racism.
    It's extremely disingenuous for Wajoma to pretend as though Finnegan or
    I were suddenly unnecessarily introducing 'race' and racism into a discussion
    of American history, politics, or culture. These issues have long been there.

    In fact, the United States (which has been primarily ruled by white people)
    long 'defined people by race' and *legally discriminated* in various ways
    against people who were not defined as 'white'. Books have been written
    (even by white Americans) about this mountain of racial discrimination.

    For example, the USA's indigenous people (then called 'Indians' ) were not
    even granted full US citizenship until the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
    The 'one drop of black blood' standard for making a person 'colored' or 'Negro'
    was written into the racial laws of some US states. There were court cases
    in which people of Asian Indian ancestry attempted to argue that they,
    based on anthropological evidence, were 'Caucasians' and hence should be
    legally considered 'white' and exempt from the laws against the 'Orientals'.

    Also, the only proper context of this thread and the 'Whiteness Project'
    itself (created by a white American) is white racism in the United States.
    New Zealand has a quite different history (such as no enslavement of blacks),
    and therefore any racism there has different historical origins and context.
    Wajoma's mentioning the Maori in Aotearoa is irrelevant to a US context.

    American racism exists despite the denials by American racists and their sympathizers.
  15. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    18 Oct '14 20:28
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Wajoma seems determined to deny or obscure the realities of American racism.
    It's extremely disingenuous for Wajoma to pretend as though Finnegan or
    I were suddenly unnecessarily introducing 'race' and racism into a discussion
    of American history, politics, or culture. These issues have long been there.

    In fact, the United States (which has been prim ...[text shortened]... ntext.

    American racism exists despite the denials by American racists and their sympathizers.
    We white Americans are overcoming racism, but it is people like you that hinder that progress by your own racist attitudes.