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  1. Standard membervivify
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    13 Oct '18 16:13
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/president-trump-calls-severe-punishment-saudi-arabia-killed/story%3fid=58459463

    President Trump says the United States is going to get to the bottom of the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi and said there will be "severe punishment" if Saudi Arabia is found responsible.


    Since the disappearance happened in a Saudi Arabian consulate and there's no proof the reporter left alive, chances are that the Saudi government will be considered guilty of this. Trump, to seem like a tough-guy man of his word, will probably act on this threat, just like when he fired 59 rockets into Syria.

    Saudi Arabia is quite possibly America's only real Muslim ally now that relations with Turkey are strained, and especially after declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital. Losing Saudi Arabia would be a major blunder, especially considering they are one of the two most prominent Muslim forces, along with Iran...who already hates the U.S. ever since Trump pulled out of the Nuclear Deal.

    If both major Muslim powers turn against the U.S., that will pretty much unify the ire of the Muslim world against the U.S.

    Pretty impressive for only a year and a half in office.
  2. Zugzwang
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    13 Oct '18 17:512 edits
    @vivify said
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/president-trump-calls-severe-punishment-saudi-arabia-killed/story%3fid=58459463

    President Trump says the United States is going to get to the bottom of the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi and said there will be "severe punishment" if Saudi Arabia is found responsible.


    Since the disappearance happene ...[text shortened]... ire of the Muslim world against the U.S.

    Pretty impressive for only a year and a half in office.
    "If both major Muslim powers [Iran, Saudi Arabia] turn against the U.S.,
    that will pretty much unify the ire of the Muslim world against the U.S. "
    --Vivify

    Vivify shows ignorance of the reality that most of the world's Muslims are outside
    the Middle East and don't hold their breath waiting for the latest decrees from
    Riyadh or Tehran about what they should believe or do.

    I suspect that hell would freeze before Iran and Saudi Arabia become allies with each other.
    On account of the deep Sunni-Shia division (Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist Sunnis regard
    Iran's Shias as heretics, more or less), Saudi Arabia hates Iran more than it hated Israel.
    The USA (or President Trump's extreme pro-Israeli advisers) hopes that Saudi Arabia,
    claiming to 'represent' the Palestinians, will soon be ready to sell them out formally
    (as well in practice), attempting to compel them to surrender completely to Israel,
    in return for increased US and Israeli support against Iran. I would submit that
    Saudi Arabia would sooner ally with Israel in a war against Iran than ally with Iran
    in a war against Israel. (Saudi Arabia could not care less about the Palestinians.)
  3. Standard membervivify
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    13 Oct '18 18:473 edits
    @duchess64 said
    "If both major Muslim powers [Iran, Saudi Arabia] turn against the U.S.,
    that will pretty much unify the ire of the Muslim world against the U.S. "
    --Vivify

    Vivify shows ignorance of the reality that most of the world's Muslims are outside
    the Middle East and don't hold their breath waiting for the latest decrees from
    Riyadh or Tehran about what they should believe ...[text shortened]... do.

    I suspect that hell would freeze before Iran and Saudi Arabia become allies with each other.
    Your reading compression, as usual, is poor.

    Did I at any point imply Iran or SA control or influence the world's Muslims? No, I simply said they are the two major powers. I also never implied they would ever team up. Two nations can have a common enemy without being allies themselves.

    Trump is foolishly endangering ties with the U.S.' only real Muslim (nation) ally; a terrible move given how Trump already angered Muslims regarding Israel, and stopped Palestinian aid.
  4. Zugzwang
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    13 Oct '18 19:125 edits
    @vivify said
    Your reading compression, as usual, is poor.

    Did I at any point imply Iran or SA control or influence the world's Muslims? No, I simply said they are the two major powers. I also never implied they would ever team up. Two nations can have a common enemy without being allies themselves.

    Trump is foolishly endangering ties with the U.S.' only real Muslim (nation) ally; a ...[text shortened]... terrible move given how Trump already angered Muslims regarding Israel, and stopped Palestinian aid.
    The arrogant ignorant Vivify goes to any disingenuous length to avoid conceding any error to me.

    "Did I at any point imply Iran or SA [Saudi Arabia] control or influence the world's Muslims?"
    --Vivify

    Yes. Vivify hopes that nearly illiterate 'readers' will be gullible enough to fall for his lie.

    "If both major Muslim powers [Iran, Saudi Arabia] turn against the U.S.,
    that will pretty much unify the ire of the Muslim world against the U.S."
    --Vivify

    FALSE. Vivify refuses to concede that his statement is absurd.

    There are many predominantly Muslim countries, which are proudly independent.
    Only a few (some of Saudi Arabia's much smaller neighbors) may be regarded as
    de facto vassals of Saudi Arabia, and, even then, Qatar has defied Saudi Arabia.

    On a general note, ignorant Westerners tend to stereotype all Muslims as waiting
    around for a few powerful leaders to order them exactly what to believe or do.
    In reality, Muslims are very diverse and tend to be proud of thinking for themselves.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    13 Oct '18 19:551 edit
    @duchess64 said
    The arrogant ignorant Vivify goes to any disingenuous length to avoid conceding any error to me.

    "Did I at any point imply Iran or SA [Saudi Arabia] control or influence the world's Muslims?"
    --Vivify

    Yes. Vivify hopes that nearly illiterate 'readers' will be gullible enough to fall for his lie.

    "If both major Muslim powers [Iran, Saudi Arabia] turn against the ...[text shortened]... elieve or do.
    In reality, Muslims are very diverse and tend to be proud of thinking for themselves.
    Duchess is determined to prove how bad her reading comprehension is.

    "Saudi Arabia is quite possibly America's only real Muslim ally now that relations with Turkey are strained, and especially after declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital."

    This is what I said BEFORE the bit about uniting Muslim ire. By "unite", clearly, I mean *complete*, since much of Muslim
    Nations already have animosity toward America.

    I didn't mean "unite" because the other Muslim nations will follow SA; I mean because Trump is coming dangerously close to causing SA joining the other Muslim nations who hate the U.S.

    Duchess' misconstruing of people's posts is a common complain from RHP members.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Oct '18 20:111 edit
    @vivify said
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/president-trump-calls-severe-punishment-saudi-arabia-killed/story%3fid=58459463

    President Trump says the United States is going to get to the bottom of the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi and said there will be "severe punishment" if Saudi Arabia is found responsible.


    Since the disappearance happene ...[text shortened]... ire of the Muslim world against the U.S.

    Pretty impressive for only a year and a half in office.
    Is the United States supposed to ignore that the Saudis quite possibly murdered a reporter in one of their consulates and is now covering it up?

    Do we really need an "ally" that would do such a thing?

    I wouldn't "worry" if I were you; Trump indicated a few American jobs were more important than the Khashoggi’s life:

    But when asked whether or not he would potentially impose sanctions against Saudi Arabia, Trump said that it depends on what the sanctions are. He noted that major defense contractors secured a deal with the Saudis to build military equipment and he wouldn't want any punishment to cost American jobs.

    "Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, all these com... I don't want to hurt jobs. I don't want to lose an order like that. There are other ways of punishing. To use a word that's a pretty harsh word but it's true," Trump said.
  7. Zugzwang
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    13 Oct '18 20:142 edits
    @vivify said
    Duchess is determined to prove how bad her reading comprehension is.

    "Saudi Arabia is quite possibly America's only real Muslim ally now that relations with Turkey are strained, and especially after declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital."

    This is what I said BEFORE the bit about uniting Muslim ire. By "unite", clearly, I mean *complete*, since much of Muslim
    Nations a ...[text shortened]... who hate the U.S.

    Duchess' misconstruing of people's posts is a common complain from RHP members.
    The arrogant ignorant troll Vivify goes to any disingenuous length to avoid conceding any error to me.

    "Did I at any point imply Iran or SA [Saudi Arabia] control or influence the world's Muslims?"
    --Vivify

    Yes. The troll Vivify hopes that nearly illiterate 'readers' will be gullible enough to fall for his lie.
    "If both major Muslim powers [Iran, Saudi Arabia] turn against the U.S.,
    that will pretty much unify the ire of the Muslim world against the U.S."
    --Vivify '

    Now the troll Vivify attempts to distract with this misleading (at best) claim.
    "Saudi Arabia is quite possibly America's only real Muslim ally now that relations with Turkey are strained..."
    --Vivify

    Noting Vivify's 'quite possibly' (deniability may be important for an ignorant troll),
    I would point out that the USA and Turkey are still allies by formal treaty in NATO.
    I would add that the USA remains an ally of Egypt, supporting its de facto military
    dictatorship with continuing military aid.
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    13 Oct '18 20:15
    @no1marauder said
    Is the United States supposed to ignore that the Saudis quite possibly murdered a reporter in one of their consulates and is now covering it up?

    Do we really need an "ally" that would do such a thing?
    I agree with No1Marauder.
  9. Zugzwang
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    13 Oct '18 20:201 edit
    @ashiitaka said
    I agree with No1Marauder.
    Rather than concede any error (at least never to me, of course), how far will the
    ignorant troll Vivify go in his new calling as apologist or propagandist for Saudi Arabia?
  10. Zugzwang
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    13 Oct '18 20:25
    @no1marauder said
    Is the United States supposed to ignore that the Saudis quite possibly murdered a reporter in one of their consulates and is now covering it up?

    Do we really need an "ally" that would do such a thing?

    I wouldn't "worry" if I were you; Trump indicated a few American jobs were more important than the Khashoggi’s life:

    But when asked whether or not he would potenti ...[text shortened]... re are other ways of punishing. To use a word that's a pretty harsh word but it's true," Trump said.
    (No1Marauder replied to Vivify.)

    On 9 October 2018, I posted this in another thread about a murdered journalist.

    Saudi Arabia allegedly sent a hit squad to murder a dissident journalist in Turkey.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/08/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-search-black-van-carried-body-saudi-arabia

    "Jamal Khashoggi: Turkey hunts black van it believes carried body
    Officials search for vehicle they say was part of convoy belonging to Saudi hit squad"

    "Nearly a week since Khashoggi disappeared, Recep Tayyip Erdo─čan stepped up his calls
    for Riyadh to explain what happened to the high-profile critic of the Saudi leadership."

    If enough evidence emerges that Saudi Arabia was responsible for his death or disappearance,
    then the USA and UK should enact sanctions against Saudi Arabia similar to those against Russia.
    But I suspect that the USA and UK will prefer to keep selling billions (USD) in arms to Saudi Arabia.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Oct '18 20:33
    @duchess64 said
    (No1Marauder replied to Vivify.)

    On 9 October 2018, I posted this in another thread about a murdered journalist.

    Saudi Arabia allegedly sent a hit squad to murder a dissident journalist in Turkey.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/08/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-search-black-van-carried-body-saudi-arabia

    "Jamal Khashoggi: Turkey hunts black van it believes ...[text shortened]... ut I suspect that the USA and UK will prefer to keep selling billions (USD) in arms to Saudi Arabia.
    I suspect you are right; the US and others have ignored similar actions against Saudi dissidents in the past. https://theintercept.com/2018/10/12/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-dissidents/
  12. Standard membervivify
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    13 Oct '18 20:342 edits
    @no1marauder said
    Is the United States supposed to ignore that the Saudis quite possibly murdered a reporter in one of their consulates and is now covering it up?

    Do we really need an "ally" that would do such a thing?
    Does the world need need an ally who invades other countries despite no proof of what they claim they're invading for? If you're going to go down this route, the US should have no allies at all. We can spend all day discussing the evil accomplishments of the US. It wouldn't be good for us if the rest of the world withdrew whatever remaining support is left.


    I wouldn't "worry" if I were you; Trump indicated a few American jobs were more important than the Khashoggi’s life:

    But when asked whether or not he would potentially impose sanctions against Saudi Arabia, Trump said that it depends on what the sanctions are. He noted that major defense contractors secured a deal with the Saudis to build military equipment and he wouldn't want any punishment to cost American jobs.

    "Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, all these com... I don't want to hurt jobs. I don't want to lose an order like that. There are other ways of punishing. To use a word that's a pretty harsh word but it's true," Trump said

    Let's hope that's all there is too it. Trump's rhetoric is often needlessly bellicos. Given how he tore asunder any diplomatic relations with Iran, it makes his "severe punishment" statement worrisome.
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    13 Oct '18 20:341 edit
    @vivify said
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/president-trump-calls-severe-punishment-saudi-arabia-killed/story%3fid=58459463

    President Trump says the United States is going to get to the bottom of the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi and said there will be "severe punishment" if Saudi Arabia is found responsible.


    Since the disappearance happene ...[text shortened]... ire of the Muslim world against the U.S.

    Pretty impressive for only a year and a half in office.
    1. We shouldn't speak of countries solely based on what religion is the majority there. America isn't referred to as "the Christian ally" by other nations and India isn't "the Hindu ally". It's just... cartoonish.

    2. Mohammed bin Salman has showed himself to be a tinpot autocrat who throws some token scraps (like women driving) to the world in the hope that it will stifle criticism for a bit longer. If he ordered for a journalist to be murdered (which is becoming very common lately, as the incident with the Bulgarian journalist confirms), then there have to be repercussions. If you think that murder should be swept under the rug for the sake of the U.S's "only Muslim ally" (I'm cringing even writing that), I'm afraid it's you with the questionable morals.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    13 Oct '18 20:52
    @ashiitaka said
    1. We shouldn't speak of countries solely based on what religion is the majority there. America isn't referred to as "the Christian ally" by other nations and India isn't "the Hindu ally". It's just... cartoonish.

    2. Mohammed bin Salman has showed himself to be a tinpot autocrat who throws some token scraps (like women driving) to the world in the hope that it will stifl ...[text shortened]... nly Muslim ally" (I'm cringing even writing that), I'm afraid it's you with the questionable morals.
    Regarding "Muslim allies", I'm simply pointing his pattern of alienating Muslims. From his call to "ban all Muslims" to his travel ban to his enraging Muslims by his declaration of Jerusalem as Israel's capital (threatening UN members to support the process), Trump possibly shutting out a significant Muslim nation like SA seems stupid.

    I'm not saying the US should ignore what happened; I'm saying aggressive talk like "severe punishment" is not something we need, nor is it even something that works; it often does the opposite.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    13 Oct '18 20:57
    @vivify said
    Does the world need need an ally who invades other countries despite no proof of what they claim they're invading for? If you're going to go down this route, the US should have no allies at all. We can spend all day discussing the evil accomplishments of the US. It wouldn't be good for us if the rest of the world withdrew whatever remaining support is left.


    [quote]I ...[text shortened]... re asunder any diplomatic relations with Iran, it makes his "severe punishment" statement worrisome.
    Talking about "severe punishment" towards a government that murders dissidents in their consulates is too "bellicose" for ya?
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