Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    29 Jun '16 18:59
    Incidentally, for the record, I do agree that the system is often inequitable and often treats black and Latino people more harshly than white people. That's wrong. But there's no evidence of racial bias in this case and alleging it based on an apples and oranges case hardly proves that there was.
  2. Zugzwang
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    29 Jun '16 19:092 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    Incidentally, for the record, I do agree that the system is often inequitable and often treats black and Latino people more harshly than white people. That's wrong. But there's no evidence of racial bias in this case and alleging it based on an apples and oranges case hardly proves that there was.
    'Black and Latino people' are not the only minorities afflicted by racism.
    But some minorities don't have enough political power or media influence to get most
    Americans to pay much attention to their grievances.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin

    In 1982, two white men brutally beat Vincent Chin (a US citizen of Chinese heritage) to death.
    They never expressed any remorse. After they were convicted of manslaughter (a lesser
    charge than the original second-degree murder), Judge Charles Kaufman sentenced
    them to no time in prison, three years' probation, and fines of 3000 USD (plus court costs).
    Judge Kaufman had a record of sentencing people convicted of much lesser crimes to time in prison.

    This extremely lenient sentence was popular among white people, but it provoked
    outrage among the (extremely politically weak) diverse Asian-American communities.
    The judge never expressed any regret for his sentence. After his death, his daughter
    said that the sentence was 'definitely wrong' but denied that the judge was a racist.
    Few, if any, Asian-Americans would believe that the judge was not influenced by racism.
  3. Joined
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    29 Jun '16 19:18
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    'Black and Latino people' are not the only minorities afflicted by racism.
    But some minorities don't have enough political power or media influence to get most
    Americans to pay much attention to their grievances.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin

    In 1982, two white men brutally beat Vincent Chin (a US citizen of Chinese heritage) ...[text shortened]... racist.
    Few, if any, Asian-Americans would believe that the judge was not influenced by racism.
    I don't think you guys give enough thought to the good ole boys club. A judge has nothing to gain by sentencing along racial lines. Who knows what goes on behind the scenes with bribes and favors being called in. Most of the judges, prosecuting attourneys, and lawyers in general are corrupt. Money or other personal gain is more likely the motivating factor.
  4. Zugzwang
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    29 Jun '16 19:50
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    I don't think you guys give enough thought to the good ole boys club. A judge has nothing to gain by sentencing along racial lines. Who knows what goes on behind the scenes with bribes and favors being called in. Most of the judges, prosecuting attourneys, and lawyers in general are corrupt. Money or other personal gain is more likely the motivating factor.
    The USA has a long history of violence against its Chinese minority (including white mobs
    massacring some Chinese communities) that were condoned by the American legal authorities.
    Some populist white politicians advocated violence to eliminate the Chinese minority.

    Judge Kaufman sent an entire town school board to jail for failing to approve a sewer line.
    He sentenced eleven teachers to jail after they refused to return to work.

    But Judge Kaufman refused to sentence two white men to any time in prison after they
    were convicted of manslaughter in brutally beating Vincent Chin to death. And it was
    a popular sentence (at least at that time) among white people in the local community.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    29 Jun '16 20:16
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    A judge has nothing to gain by sentencing along racial lines.
    People rarely have anything to gain from racism; that doesn't stop it from existing.
  6. Joined
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    29 Jun '16 20:48
    Originally posted by vivify
    People rarely have anything to gain from racism; that doesn't stop it from existing.
    Yes but a judge has a lot to loose. Most aren't shallow with racism.
  7. Zugzwang
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    29 Jun '16 20:571 edit
    Originally posted by joe beyser to Vivify
    Yes but a judge has a lot to loose. Most aren't shallow with racism.
    Joe Beyser refuses to concede that racism, even racist violence, may be popular.

    There's no evidence that Judge Kaufman became less popular after his extremely lenient sentence.
    The two white men who brutally beat Vincent Chin to death excused it on the grounds
    that they had assumed that he was Japanese (not a US citizen of Chinese heritage), and
    they blamed Japan for depriving auto workers of their jobs in Detroit. Some white people
    apparently admired the murderers for 'fighting back' against Japan (or Japan's auto
    industry) by killing a US citizen who had no connection to Japan or its auto industry.
  8. Joined
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    29 Jun '16 21:10
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Joe Beyser refuses to concede that racism, even racist violence, may be popular.

    There's no evidence that Judge Kaufman became less popular after his extremely lenient sentence.
    The two white men who brutally beat Vincent Chin to death excused it on the grounds
    that they had assumed that he was Japanese (not a US citizen of Chinese heritage), and
    t ...[text shortened]... 's auto
    industry) by killing a US citizen who had no connection to Japan or its auto industry.
    White on any race violence or racism would be very unpopular in California these days. Back when the eugenics movement was in full swing maybe, but not now.
  9. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    New York
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    29 Jun '16 21:16
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    'Black and Latino people' are not the only minorities afflicted by racism.
    But some minorities don't have enough political power or media influence to get most
    Americans to pay much attention to their grievances.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin

    In 1982, two white men brutally beat Vincent Chin (a US citizen of Chinese heritage) ...[text shortened]... racist.
    Few, if any, Asian-Americans would believe that the judge was not influenced by racism.
    There may have been isolated incidents of bias, but I know of no evidence that Asian Americans are systematically discriminated against in the justice system.
  10. Zugzwang
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    29 Jun '16 21:331 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    There may have been isolated incidents of bias, but I know of no evidence that Asian Americans are systematically discriminated against in the justice system.
    I know that popular racist stereotypes of Asians tend to differ from those of blacks or Latinos.
    While there are some negative stereotypes ('Asian gang member' ), I would accept that
    Asian men tend to face less racism than black or Latino men as defendants in criminal cases.
    But that's not the complete extent of the US justice system. And I would submit that, in
    the case of an Asian against a white before a white judge and predominantly white jury,
    the Asian might well be at a disadvantage through, at least, popular racial stereotyping.

    How much awareness does Sh76 have of anti-Asian racism in US history (not limited to the criminal justice system)?
    In my experience, white Americans usually say there was little, if any, anti-Asian racism
    in the past and definitely no anti-Asian racism today. That shows their vast ignorance.
    Anti-Asian racism, both in the past and the present, is given hardly any attention in the USA,
    primarily on account, it seems, of the extreme political weakness of Asian-Americans, who
    often are not even accepted as 'real Americans'.

    In US history, racism against Asians was worse than against any other minority except
    for 'Indians' and blacks. Anti-Asian racism was worse than anti-Jewish bigotry in the USA.

    Does Sh76 approve of Judge Kaufman's sentence of no time in prison for the white men who killed Vincent Chin?
  11. Zugzwang
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    30 Jun '16 19:23
    Originally posted by sh76
    There may have been isolated incidents of bias, but I know of no evidence that Asian Americans are systematically discriminated against in the justice system.
    In US history, there's ample evidence of legalized racism against Asian-Americans,
    though more against some groups (Chinese, Japanese) than against others (Indians).
    What follows is far from a complete list of such racism:

    At a federal level, there was the Chinese Exclusion Act, which barred Chinese immigration
    with a few exceptions made for diplomats, merchants, or students. It was not until about 1952
    that East Asian immigrants in general became eligible to become naturalized US citizens.
    There also was the mass internment (then upheld by the US Supreme Court) of ethnic
    Japanese in the Second World War.

    At state levels, there were laws (such as in California) barring Asians from owning land.
    Or, in some places, special extra taxes imposed upon members of some Asian groups.

    Within the justice system itself, in California, for instance, ethnic Chinese were barred
    from serving on juries or giving testimony against white people in court. There were cases
    when a white man evidently murdered a Chinese and he got away with it because all the
    witnesses were Chinese and therefore barred from testifying against him in court.

    And, even outside the South, Asians often were the targets of the same or similar racist
    laws against blacks, such as anti-miscegenation (interracial marriage) laws.
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