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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 May '13 02:45
    No, seriously. Why?

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/17094076/abandoned/

    Dubai is being promoted as a luxury high-class paradise in the desert, but the reality is brutally different, as Australian Alicia Gali discovered. Gali took a job in the UAE with one of the world’s biggest hotel chains, Starwood. What happened next makes this story a must-watch for every Australian planning on travelling through the region.

    Gali was using her laptop in the hotel’s staff bar when her drink was spiked. She awoke to a nightmare beyond belief: she had been savagely raped by three of her colleagues. Alone and frightened, she took herself to hospital. What Alicia didn’t know is that under the UAE’s strict sharia laws, if the perpetrator does not confess, a rape cannot be convicted without four adult Muslim male witnesses. She was charged with having illicit sex outside marriage, and thrown in a filthy jail cell for eight months.
  2. 13 May '13 03:15
    Originally posted by sh76
    No, seriously. Why?

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/17094076/abandoned/

    Dubai is being promoted as a luxury high-class paradise in the desert, but the reality is brutally different, as Australian Alicia Gali discovered. Gali took a job in the UAE with one of the world’s biggest hotel chains, Starwood. What happened next mak ...[text shortened]... having illicit sex outside marriage, and thrown in a filthy jail cell for eight months.
    Now, now, I'm sure that these are isolated extremist Muslims. Why are you such a bigot?

    Nothing to see here, move along everyone.
  3. 13 May '13 03:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    No, seriously. Why?

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/17094076/abandoned/

    Dubai is being promoted as a luxury high-class paradise in the desert, but the reality is brutally different, as Australian Alicia Gali discovered. Gali took a job in the UAE with one of the world’s biggest hotel chains, Starwood. What happened next mak ...[text shortened]... having illicit sex outside marriage, and thrown in a filthy jail cell for eight months.
    Why do people want to go to places like that? A rag head is a rag head is a rag head.
  4. 13 May '13 03:41
    Originally posted by joe beyser
    Why do people want to go to places like that? A rag head is a rag head is a rag head.
    To rape women with impunity?
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    13 May '13 04:34
    Originally posted by sh76
    No, seriously. Why?

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/17094076/abandoned/

    Dubai is being promoted as a luxury high-class paradise in the desert, but the reality is brutally different, as Australian Alicia Gali discovered. Gali took a job in the UAE with one of the world’s biggest hotel chains, Starwood. What happened next mak ...[text shortened]... having illicit sex outside marriage, and thrown in a filthy jail cell for eight months.
    How much "outrage" would be appropriate in your mind considering the case is five years old and the rapists were sent to prison? Of course, laws giving jail sentences for adultery are an abomination but considering the daily list of atrocities that occur in the world why is this story so deserving of "serious international outrage"?
  6. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    13 May '13 06:32
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    How much "outrage" would be appropriate in your mind considering the case is five years old and the rapists were sent to prison? Of course, laws giving jail sentences for adultery are an abomination but considering the daily list of atrocities that occur in the world why is this story so deserving of "serious international outrage"?
    I thought you've been on these fora long enough to realize that outrage in its pure distilled essence lasts far longer that truth justice and the American way. Especially if the outrage comes draped in profiled bigotry....
  7. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    13 May '13 06:40
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I thought you've been on these fora long enough to realize that outrage in its pure distilled essence lasts far longer that truth justice and the American way. Especially if the outrage comes draped in profiled bigotry....
    We really need to lobby Rus to insert a tab between thumbs up and down. Tentatively titled oh really, or yeah whatever, it would represent the forum's consensus view of what usually turns out to be a hack piece of journalese. This way we wouldn't need to dignify the often shoddy arguments with any lengthy response.
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 May '13 13:14
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    How much "outrage" would be appropriate in your mind considering the case is five years old and the rapists were sent to prison? Of course, laws giving jail sentences for adultery are an abomination but considering the daily list of atrocities that occur in the world why is this story so deserving of "serious international outrage"?
    Because this was apparently not an isolated incident, but a standard component of their justice system.

    And this is not about "jail sentences for adultery." While I disagree with jail sentences for adultery of course, I would not get worked up over a jail sentence for voluntary adultery. Hey, you don't like it, don't go there.

    But jail sentences for being raped an an incredible human rights violation.

    That the rapists were sent to prison makes it even worse. If the rapists were exonerated, at least you could argue that there was a finding that the act was voluntary. That they found the act to be involuntary and sent the victim to prison anyway makes it as bad a component of a justice system that I know of in the world today.
  9. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 May '13 13:16
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I thought you've been on these fora long enough to realize that outrage in its pure distilled essence lasts far longer that truth justice and the American way. Especially if the outrage comes draped in profiled bigotry....
    If you have an allegation to make, why don't you just come out and make it rather than couching it in a series of obtuse weasel words?
  10. 13 May '13 13:20
    While there is clearly no justification for jail sentences for being raped, the victim has also shown incredibly poor judgement and naivety by immediately going to the police without first investigating the legal system in the country where she was residing. With some rudimentary legal advice, there would have most likely been a way for the perpetrators to get punished without her having to go to jail. Legal systems and police forces in dictatorships don't work the way they do in countries where human rights are more or less respected, and this is a dictatorship with sharia law to boot.
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    13 May '13 13:23
    Originally posted by sh76
    Because this was apparently not an isolated incident, but a standard component of their justice system.

    And this is not about "jail sentences for adultery." While I disagree with jail sentences for adultery of course, I would not get worked up over a jail sentence for voluntary adultery. Hey, you don't like it, don't go there.

    But jail sentences for being ...[text shortened]... on anyway makes it as bad a component of a justice system that I know of in the world today.
    Apparently the men were sent to prison for adultery, not rape. The woman alleged rape but there was not a sufficient quantum of proof to convict them under the UAE justice system and quite possibly under ours as well.

    One could well argue that a justice system that requires a confession or the testimony of four witnesses (to any serious crime not just rape) is antiquated. Then again the penalty for rape and other serious crimes in Dubai is death, so extraordinary proof requirements may be in prudent and not necessarily outrageous.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    13 May '13 13:29
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    While there is clearly no justification for jail sentences for being raped, the victim has also shown incredibly poor judgement and naivety by immediately going to the police without first investigating the legal system in the country where she was residing. With some rudimentary legal advice, there would have most likely been a way for the perpetrators ...[text shortened]... re human rights are more or less respected, and this is a dictatorship with sharia law to boot.
    She is suing the Australian government because she went to the consulate first and claims she was not advised that she might be arrested for adultery for having sex outside of marriage. The lawsuit is pending.
  13. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    13 May '13 13:58
    Originally posted by sh76
    If you have an allegation to make, why don't you just come out and make it rather than couching it in a series of obtuse weasel words?
    If you're going the weasel words tack, then FMF's work is done!
  14. 13 May '13 14:01
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    She is suing the Australian government because she went to the consulate first and claims she was not advised that she might be arrested for adultery for having sex outside of marriage. The lawsuit is pending.
    I stand corrected. In that case it was an awful oversight by the responsible personnel at the consulate.
  15. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    13 May '13 14:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I stand corrected. In that case it was an awful oversight by the responsible personnel at the consulate.
    Its fairly common wisdom in Australia that you don't go out on a Saturday night single to a Sydney bar and not keep your eye glued to your drink. Its also fairly common wisdom that you do not go and work in a foreign country and go out single and drink. Not that we should apologize for our expectations of Western outcomes in non Western countries, but seriously, the prevention argument, when are people simply going to listen. Yeah I het it that it is a human right to dress how you want and walk where you want and that no ill should fall your peaceful progress, but dammit, when you start having better than Western eexpectations of outcomes in non Western countries, then there's also reality and what is prudent.