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  1. Standard membervivify
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    16 Mar '17 04:552 edits
    The video is a testimonial from Yeonmi Park, about what she suffered living in N. Korea.

    YouTube : Yeonmi Park

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-story-of-a-north-korean-defector-yeonmi-park-to_us_58c4c742e4b070e55af9f00c

    “To you, he was a joke. To me, he [Kim Jong Un] was a God,” said Yeonmi Park today when she presented to the 2017 Global Teen Leaders at the Just Peace Summit.

    Tentatively, she introduced herself as a North Korean defector. Eyes dry, she slowly began to deliver the story of her life.

    To non-North Koreans, Yeonmi began, Kim Jong Un appeared as a paper tiger — a caricature of despotism reduced to comedy flicks like The Dictator or Saturday Night Live jokes.

    To her, Kim Jong Un was a literal god. He was “Our Dearest Leader.”

    Yeonmi’s world was a terrible reality. It featured a society which she referred to as “brainwashed.” During Yeonmi’s time in North Korea, she recalled a society where public executions were performed arbitrarily. When one person was arrested, their entire family was at risk of being sent to a Korean work camp. “You can be killed for watching a [foreign] movie,” said Yeonmi.

    It was when Yeonmi first watched a smuggled copy of Titanic that she realized there was a world outside of hers. The vision of young Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet kissing introduced a completely alien situation. To Yeonmi, it was the first time she witnessed a man die for someone who wasn’t the Dearest Leader. Titanic became a prototype of the outside world — a vision that would ultimately drive her to search for a world where people were well-fed, had the freedom to love, and understood the concept of liberty and happiness.

    When Yeonmi’s father was arrested for illegal trading, her family became ostracized and lost their home. For a time, Yeonmi survived on grasshoppers and dragonflies she caught and bathed in the river, making the most of her impoverished situation.

    When her sister turned sixteen and left the family for China—a land that lit up at night like nothing she’d seen in the perpetual darkness of North Korea, Yeonmi decided to follow. With a stranger’s kindness, Yeonmi soon led her mom by the hand to flee across the frozen Yalu River and into China.

    After arriving at the northern bound of Manchuria from her escape, Yeonmi was quickly recaptured by Chinese soldiers who threatened to deport Yeonmi and her mother back to North Korea where they would face execution. To satisfy the shortage of girls to be married in rural China, a result of the One-Child Policy, the soldiers would allow them in but only if they could have sex with Yeonmi. However, the unabiding love and protection of Yeonmi’s mother saved her from assault, and her mother was raped in front of her. Yeonmi recalls the horrifying scene as something “no girl should ever witness”. Not only a physical assault, the mental and emotional violation of Yeonmi continues to haunt her today.

    Soon after, her mother and her were sold by the soldiers. Her mother for $65, and her for under $300 because she was a young virgin. For the next two years, Yeonmi was a “mistress” to someone much older than she was, a “slave” she said. She was then introduced to missionaries who told her that if she proved her devotion to Christianity, they would help her escape. They arranged for her to lead a band of eight North Koreans across the Gobi desert. With them they carried knives and poisonous drugs and threatened to use them when they met the Mongolian border soldiers who were hesitant to let them in, because they knew it was better to kill themselves than go back to North Korea and be killed.

    In 2009, Yeonmi and her mother arrived in South Korea. “What’s your favorite color?” someone asked her there. Yeonmi paused. “Red.” That’s the color of the regime, after all. But then she thought about it, and she wasn’t so sure. What was her favorite color?

    Her whole life was worshipping the regime that ruled her like a religion. No one ever asked her what she thought about anything—not her value, not her philosophy, and certainly not her favorite color. For the first time, she became an individual with her own opinions. And what she thought mattered.
  2. Joined
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    16 Mar '17 10:16
    Originally posted by vivify
    The video is a testimonial from Yeonmi Park, about what she suffered living in N. Korea.

    [youtube Yeonmi Park]fviUrk_sh6o[/youtube]

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-story-of-a-north-korean-defector-yeonmi-park-to_us_58c4c742e4b070e55af9f00c

    “To you, he was a joke. To me, he [Kim Jong Un] was a God,” said Yeonmi Park today when she presented to ...[text shortened]... r the first time, she became an individual with her own opinions. And what she thought mattered.
    Cool thread just not really a debate
  3. Standard membervivify
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    16 Mar '17 14:26
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Cool thread just not really a debate
    Should N.K. be invaded to liberate its people? If so, how? If not, why?
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Mar '17 16:431 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Should N.K. be invaded to liberate its people? If so, how? If not, why?
    No because China will intervene and defeat us like they did in the 50s

    http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm

    The Chinese Intervention
    3 November 1950-24 January 1951
    They came out of the hills near Unsan, North Korea, blowing bugles in the dying light of day on 1 November 1950, throwing grenades and firing their "burp" guns at the surprised American soldiers of the 8th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division. Those who survived the initial assaults reported how shaken the spectacle of massed Chinese infantry had left them. Thousands of Chinese had attacked from the north, northwest, and west against scattered U.S. and South Korean (Republic of Korea or ROK) units moving deep into North Korea. The Chinese seemed to come out of nowhere as they swarmed around the flanks and over the defensive positions of the surprised United Nations (UN) troops. Within hours the ROK 15th Regiment on the 8th Cavalry�s right flank collapsed, while the 1st and 2d Battalions of the 8th Cavalry fell back in disarray into the city of Unsan. By morning, with their positions being overrun and their guns falling silent, the men of the 8th Cavalry tried to withdraw, but a Chinese roadblock to their rear forced them to abandon their artillery, and the men took to the hills in small groups. Only a few scattered survivors made it back to tell their story. The remaining battalion of the 8th Cavalry, the 3d, was hit early in the morning of 2 November with the same "human wave" assaults of bugle-blowing Chinese. In the confusion, one company-size Chinese element was mistaken for South Koreans and allowed to pass a critical bridge near the battalion command post (CP). Once over the bridge, the enemy commander blew his bugle, and the Chinese, throwing satchel charges and grenades, overran the CP.
    Elements of the two other regiments of the 1st Cavalry Division, the 5th and 7th Cavalries, tried unsuccessfully to reach the isolated battalion. The 5th Cavalry, commanded by then Lt. Col. Harold K. Johnson, later to be Chief of Staff of the Army, led a two-battalion counterattack on the dug-in Chinese positions encircling the 8th Cavalry. However, with insufficient artillery support and a determined enemy, he and his men were unable to break the Chinese line. With daylight fading, the relief effort was broken off and the men of the 8th Cavalry were ordered to get out of the trap any way they could. Breaking into small elements, the soldiers moved out overland under cover of darkness. Most did not make it. In all, over eight hundred men of the 8th Cavalry were lost�almost one-third of the regiment�s strength�in the initial attacks by massive Chinese forces, forces that only recently had been considered as existing only in rumor.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    16 Mar '17 17:401 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No because China will intervene and defeat us like they did in the 50s

    http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm

    The Chinese Intervention
    3 November 1950-24 January 1951
    They came out of the hills near Unsan, North Korea, blowing bugles in the dying light of day on 1 November 1950, throwing grenades and firing their " ...[text shortened]... hinese forces, forces that only recently had been considered as existing only in rumor.
    I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. I meant, should there be some sort of effort (like something organized by the U.N.) to liberate the people of N. Korea?
  6. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Mar '17 17:44
    Originally posted by vivify
    I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. I meant, should there be some sort of effort (like something organized by the U.N.) to liberate the people of N. Korea?
    Probably but realistically China won't permit it.
  7. Cape Town
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    16 Mar '17 17:521 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. I meant, should there be some sort of effort (like something organized by the U.N.) to liberate the people of N. Korea?
    If it could be done without significant loss of life, I would support it. But history tells us that most 'liberation' wars leave many of the people dead and often does not leave them much better off than before. Further, few countries are willing to sponsor such a war unless there is something significant to gain (for them, not the country being 'liberated' ).
    Another major problem is that once you accept a policy of invasion for 'distasteful' regimes, you have to ask where to draw the line. And many other regimes are quite worried that they would be next on the list, so they will fight tooth and nail to not allow the invasion of North Korea unless some argument can be made that cannot later be used to support further invasions. And some of those other 'next in line' countries are extremely powerful or influential (China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia for example).
  8. Cape Town
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    16 Mar '17 17:54
    Also keep in mind that any attack on North Korea would probably result in immediate attack on South Korea which could, in very short order, wipe out much of Soul. If you cannot guarantee that that won't happen, then it isn't worth the risk.
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
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    16 Mar '17 17:55
    Originally posted by vivify
    I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. I meant, should there be some sort of effort (like something organized by the U.N.) to liberate the people of N. Korea?
    For that to happen then the Chinese would have to not use their veto on the security council, which would imply that they had come to the conclusion that the North Korean regime needed to be changed. If they come to that conclusion then I imagine that they would just go ahead and "liberate" North Korea themselves without bothering to consult the UN first.
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Mar '17 18:12
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    For that to happen then the Chinese would have to not use their veto on the security council, which would imply that they had come to the conclusion that the North Korean regime needed to be changed. If they come to that conclusion then I imagine that they would just go ahead and "liberate" North Korea themselves without bothering to consult the UN first.
    No they wouldn't. China is obsessed with legalities and hates the idea of unilateral invasions. They don't want to absorb the NorK population into China and they don't want Korean unification under the South Korean government. Nor do they want a pit of chaos, crime and terrorism on their border which is what North Korea is likely to become after the fall of the Communist Kim regime.
  11. Standard memberDeepThought
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    16 Mar '17 18:40
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No they wouldn't. China is obsessed with legalities and hates the idea of unilateral invasions. They don't want to absorb the NorK population into China and they don't want Korean unification under the South Korean government. Nor do they want a pit of chaos, crime and terrorism on their border which is what North Korea is likely to become after the fall of the Communist Kim regime.
    They did not seem to regard UN authorisation as necessary when they took Tibet or during the Sino-Indian war. They don't need to annexe North Korea, just replace the regime with a clone of their own.
  12. Zugzwang
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    16 Mar '17 20:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung to DeepThought
    No they wouldn't. China is obsessed with legalities and hates the idea of unilateral invasions. They don't want to absorb the NorK population into China and they don't want Korean unification under the South Korean government. Nor do they want a pit of chaos, crime and terrorism on their border which is what North Korea is likely to become after the fall of the Communist Kim regime.
    China has no love for the hereditary Kim regime in the DPRK (North Korea).
    China's interest is *not* in keeping the Kim regime in power at all costs but in insuring
    that North Korea's territory and resources are *not* exploited to threaten or attack China.

    As for potential Korean reunification, first of all, the ROK (South Korea) is *not* ready to
    embrace that *now* because the economic costs of absorbing the DPRK would be too high.
    I believe that China (which has had fairly cordial relations with the ROK, despite US efforts
    to make them worse) would consider accepting a unified Korea under Seoul *if* the USA
    were to remove all its military bases from Korea. I doubt that the USA would agree to this
    condition, preferring to insist upon its 'God-given' right to build military bases in former North Korea.
  13. Zugzwang
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    16 Mar '17 20:07
    Originally posted by vivify to Ash
    Should N.K. be invaded to liberate its people? If so, how? If not, why?
    Does Vivify believe that it would be a good idea to invade a country with nuclear weapons?
    Who would be foolish enough to attempt this and risk being nuked by a DPRK regime with nothing left to lose?

    When the DPRK changes, that change will come from within.
  14. Standard memberSleepyguy
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    16 Mar '17 20:09
    Gotta love those Chinese soldiers. Raping the mom instead of the daughter, and then selling her so cheap. So giving.
  15. Zugzwang
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    16 Mar '17 20:281 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought to AThousandYoung
    They did not seem to regard UN authorisation as necessary when they took Tibet or during the Sino-Indian war.
    They don't need to annexe North Korea, just replace the regime with a clone of their own.
    What historical and geopolitical ignorance and misinformation!

    As I already have explained in other threads, Tibet was *not* a sovereign state; it had no
    international recognition as such. When China was ruled by the KMT (Chiang Kai-shek),
    the UK attempted to detach Tibet from China and make it into a British imperial protectorate.
    Chiang Kai-shek successfully appealed to the USA (his ally) to withstand British pressure.
    The USA acknowledged that China had sovereignty over Tibet. Even after China became
    ruled by the USA's hated Communist enemy, the USA did not claim that Tibet was a sovereign state.

    Now it's true that China, which was beset by both protracted civil war and a near genocidal
    invasion by Japan, lacked the power to enforce its authority in Tibet. But a nation does
    not forfeit sovereignty simply because its government temporarily lacks the power to enforce it.
    During the US Civil War, the USA never conceded its loss of sovereignty over the South.

    In his history _India's China War_, Neville Maxwell (an Australian), who began writing it
    with a clear pro-Indian bias, concluded that China made about every reasonable effort to
    avoid war while India was the aggressor through unilaterally occupying disputed territory
    and building fortified military outposts there. After China's diplomatic efforts to negotiate
    or seek compromise had failed (India self-righteously disregarded them), it was clear enough
    that if China did nothing, then India simply would unilaterally occupy and annex all disputed territory.
    Having the support of both the USA and USSR, India's generals were smugly
    overconfident that China could not fight and expected a comfortably military victory by India.
    Neville Maxwell concluded that India forced China into a position where it had to choose
    between going to war or surrendering without a fight.

    During and after losing the war, India needed a scapegoat, and it fell upon its Chinese minority
    (few of whom were pro-Communist), which was terribly persecuted. To this day, India
    officially refuses to concede that it did anything wrong during its brutal 'ethnic cleansing'
    (to apply a later term) of its Chinese minority.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Chinese_Indians

    "After the [Chinese] internees were freed after years of incarceration, many discovered
    that their properties had been sold off in their absence, but were only offered tiny sums
    for compensation. Almost all internees had their homes, shops, and factories looted or
    taken over by locals.[1]

    The Chinese population in Calcutta decreased by half, from 20,000 to 10,000. Those
    who remained were seen as enemies, and most could not hold any job except in the
    restaurant, tanning, and shoemaking businesses.[7] Moreover, their movements were
    restricted. Until the mid-1980s, the Chinese-Indians were required to report to
    designated police stations once a month; until the mid-1990s, they had to apply for
    special permits to travel more than a few kilometres from their homes."

    Contrary to a popular Western delusion, the Kim regime in the DPRK is *not* a puppet of China.
    China lacks the power to replace the Kim regime with another of its preference.
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