Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    14 Apr '16 19:061 edit
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Duchess64: pedant unable to look beyond the rim of the tea cup.

    Waltzing Matilda is known as the unofficial national anthem of Australia.

    EDIT: no one gave Guppy poo thumbs down for suggesting "Oh flower of Scotland."
    Moonbus is an extremely arrogant disingenuous ignoramus who's far too insecure to admit his error.
    I doubt that Moonbus even was aware of the existence of 'Advance Australia Fair'.
    I have heard 'Advance Australia Fair' at official ceremonies in Australia. Has Moonbus ever heard it?

    And Moonbus's disingenuous attempt to excuse his ignorance makes a flawed analogy.
    In fact, Scotland is *not* officially an independent nation, so it does *not* have an official national anthem
    apart from 'God Save the Queen', the official national anthem of the UK (to which Scotland belongs).
    If Scotland does become an independent nation, it will adopt an official national anthem.
  2. Zugzwang
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    14 Apr '16 19:132 edits
    Originally posted by shavixmir to Moonbus
    Why would they?
    The arrogant disingenuous Moonbus is just desperately attempting to cover up his
    error in believing that 'Waltzing Matilda' is Australia's official national anthem.

    In contrast to Moonbus, Shavixmir wrote explicitly that he believed that 'Flower of Scotland'
    is used as an *unofficial* 'national anthem', when Scotland is not officially an independent nation.
    So Shavixmir showed no ignorance about 'Flower of Scotland'.
  3. Joined
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    14 Apr '16 20:30
    My favourite anthems include the Bulgarian and the Israeli - interestingly, both in minor keys. I prefer my anthems soulful rather than triumphalist, I think!
  4. Joined
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    14 Apr '16 20:57
    Dixie.
  5. Zugzwang
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    14 Apr '16 21:262 edits
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    My favourite anthems include the Bulgarian and the Israeli - interestingly, both in minor keys.
    I prefer my anthems soulful rather than triumphalist, I think!
    I have sung 'Hatikvah' on occasion, but I have to say that I understand well that a
    non-Jewish (usually Arab) citizen of Israel may feel uncomfortable with some of its lyrics.
    The question is whether Israel should be regarded as a nation of all its citizens or just
    as a state for the Jewish people. 'Hatikvah' emphasizes the Jewish character of Israel,
    and Arab citizens of Israel (unlike Zionists) might well regard it as triumphalist.
  6. wherever I am needed
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    14 Apr '16 21:38
    Originally posted by SERGEANTPMAIN
    Dixie.
    Indeed, Sarge

    'Dixieland', the unofficial anthem of the CSA

    has a certain lilt
  7. Standard memberAmaurote
    No Name Maddox
    County Doledrum
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    14 Apr '16 21:511 edit
    NSK, the only nation truly worth the time of day: YouTube

    But failing this, the Hymn of Riego is undoubtedly the greatest of all the left-wing national anthems: YouTube
  8. Joined
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    14 Apr '16 22:191 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I have sung 'Hatikvah' on occasion, but I have to say that I understand well that a
    non-Jewish (usually Arab) citizen of Israel may feel uncomfortable with some of its lyrics.
    The question is whether Israel should be regarded as a nation of all its citizens or just
    as a state for the Jewish people. 'Hatikvah' emphasizes the Jewish character of Israel,
    and Arab citizens of Israel (unlike Zionists) might well regard it as triumphalist.
    Oh, I quite agree with you about the lyrics being problematic from that point of view - I was speaking purely about my response to the tune!
  9. Standard memberbill718
    Enigma
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    15 Apr '16 07:12
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    The arrogant disingenuous Moonbus is just desperately attempting to cover up his
    error in believing that 'Waltzing Matilda' is Australia's official national anthem.

    In contrast to Moonbus, Shavixmir wrote explicitly that he believed that 'Flower of Scotland'
    is used as an *unofficial* 'national anthem', when Scotland is not officially an independent nation.
    So Shavixmir showed no ignorance about 'Flower of Scotland'.
    Do you ever have anything positive to say about anyone?
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
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    15 Apr '16 10:031 edit
    As an American, I'm often dismayed that our national anthem is not a beautiful song. It's difficult to sing and difficult to play and it reflects the moment in which it was written, during wartime.

    I've been of the opinion for some time that the anthem should be changed to "America, the Beautiful".
  11. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    15 Apr '16 13:241 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I have sung 'Hatikvah' on occasion, but I have to say that I understand well that a
    non-Jewish (usually Arab) citizen of Israel may feel uncomfortable with some of its lyrics.
    The question is whether Israel should be regarded as a nation of all its citizens or just
    as a state for the Jewish people. 'Hatikvah' emphasizes the Jewish character of Israel,
    and Arab citizens of Israel (unlike Zionists) might well regard it as triumphalist.
    I also happen to think Hatikvah is a beautiful song, but I don't like it as Israel's national anthem.

    To start with, it was written as a wistful Zionist hope for a future state of Israel, not as a celebration of a current state.

    In fact, the original song's lyric of the hope being "Lashuv le’eretz avoteinu" ("to return to the land of our father" ) had to be changed to "Lihyot ‘am chofshi b’artzeinu" ("to be a free nation in our land" ), underlying the anachronistic nature of the lyrics.

    I think that, more than anything, the thing that caused Hatikvah to be adopted was that fact that Hatikvah gained synonimity with Holocaust resistance. Holocaust legends are repleat with Jews under Nazi control singing Hatikvah during the Warsaw ghetto uprising and in many other contexts.

    As such, the anthem was appropriate in 1948. Now that the Holocaust was more than 70 years ago, I think it might be time for a national anthem that more reflects the cosmopolitan nature of the modern state of Israel.
  12. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
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    15 Apr '16 14:21
    Originally posted by sh76
    I also happen to think Hatikvah is a beautiful song, but I don't like it as Israel's national anthem.

    To start with, it was written as a wistful Zionist hope for a future state of Israel, not as a celebration of a current state.

    In fact, the original song's lyric of the hope being "Lashuv le’eretz avoteinu" ("to return to the land of our father" ) had to ...[text shortened]... for a national anthem that more reflects the cosmopolitan nature of the modern state of Israel.
    Well reasoned from an historical perspective and said.
  13. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    15 Apr '16 15:31
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Well reasoned from an historical perspective and said.
    Thank you
  14. Zugzwang
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    15 Apr '16 18:294 edits
    Originally posted by bill718
    Do you ever have anything positive to say about anyone?
    The troll Bill718 hastens to defend another troll and personally attack me again.
    As usual, the lying troll Bill718 has dishonestly distorted what happened.
    Bill718 has a long record of spewing insults and lies to attack me personally.

    Why should I praise Moonbus for wrongly claiming that 'Waltzing Matilda' is Australia's national anthem?
    Because some ignorant people could have been *misled by his falsehood*, I simply corrected
    Moonbus's error *without criticizing him personally*. If Moonbus had not responded,
    that would have been fine with me. But Moonbus, who's too arrogant or insecure to
    admit his error, responded by hurling insults at me and making a disingenuous analogy
    in a desperate attempt to cover up his error. I expect that the abusive troll Bill718
    admires Moonbus, of course, for hurling insults at me.

    Shouldn't the self-styled 'liberal' Bill718 resume his whining about how terribly oppressed
    he is only for being a white man in the USA?
  15. Zugzwang
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    15 Apr '16 18:382 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    I also happen to think Hatikvah is a beautiful song, but I don't like it as Israel's national anthem.

    To start with, it was written as a wistful Zionist hope for a future state of Israel, not as a celebration of a current state.

    In fact, the original song's lyric of the hope being "Lashuv le’eretz avoteinu" ("to return to the land of our father" ) had to ...[text shortened]... for a national anthem that more reflects the cosmopolitan nature of the modern state of Israel.
    Sh76, thanks for your thoughtful comment, with which I generally concur.

    When I (a non-Zionist) have sung 'Hatikvah', I can imagine myself in the position of a
    Jew who felt oppressed (perhaps even fearing for the survival of the Jewish people)
    in the past (before 1948). But the modern state of Israel should have a national anthem
    whose lyrics can appeal equally to all its citizens, not exclusively to its Jewish citizens.

    P.S. I expect the lying troll Bill718 to ignore or deny the fact that I criticize when I think
    that criticism is warranted and I can praise (as here) when I think that is warranted.
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