Refuting Rajk999ism

Originally posted by Rajk999
Jesus is just a name for people like you pal. Jesus is just the guy who saved you but you continue to pay him lipservice if you need some idiot like Lewis to tell you what Jesus wants.

Jesus said that you must have good works otherwise you will not get salvation. Read Matt 25.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Jesus is just a name for people like you pal. Jesus is just the guy who saved you but you continue to pay him lipservice if you need some idiot like Lewis to tell you what Jesus wants.

Jesus said that you must have good works otherwise you will not get salvation. Read Matt 25.

Does Hebrews 10:26-30 show a Christian can perish forever after being being saved ?

"For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins.

But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries.

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctifie a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace? "

For we know Him who said, 'Vengence is Mine; I will repay'; and again, 'The Lord will judge His people."

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

I have noticed that some teachers say this verse has to apply to people who were never saved in the first place - unbelievers who reject the salvation.

Others say that it has to refer to Christian believers who were saved but lose forever that salvation and perish eternally. You go to Rajk999 if that is what you think it means.

I would confess that it DOES refer to Christians who were redeemed. But I would say that the punishment is not eternal. I will give some backround first. Then I will ask again some questions that each reader can answer for themselve.

No, this problem cannot be dealt with in a short sentence or two. The Bible in fact is not always easy to understand.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
LOL, tell it like it is!

Hebrews was written primarily to Jewish people who had accepted Christ. They were tempted to abandon the church, abandon the "assembling together" with the new covenant church and go BACK to Judaism's animal sacrifices. In other words after receiving the knowledge that the Son of God has come and died and rose, they hesitated and thought to return to the offering of bulls and goats to take away their sins.

The "sin willfully" here means to one's own assembling together with the church according to the previous verse 25 - "Not abandoning our own assembling together, as the custom with some is, ..." (v.25)

Some wanted to abandon the assembly, the church, and go back to the old religion. This would constitute a willful sin in the eyes of God, in that it would have been committed after they had received the knowledge of the truth.

This is why I have to believe that the passage is about real disciples of Jesus. They received Him. To all who received Him God has given the authority to be born again sons of God (John 1:12,13).

In this post I have given a brief word on the meaning of "sin willfully" in verse 26 and submitted that the passage from 26 through to 31, I believe is not concerning false believers, but real ones. The application of the passage could refer in principle to any Christian desiring to forsake the new covenant and return to another means of atonement towards God.

Cont. below

Originally posted by divegeester
I have read some of Lewis when I was younger and was blessed and instructed although I do not particularly hold him as an example to others.

There is nothing of the principle of good works and living in the spirit in your posts, in fact you come across as an unforgiving, bitter, angry and arrogant person.

Originally posted by sonship
Hebrews was written primarily to Jewish people who had accepted Christ. They were tempted to abandon the church, abandon the [b]"assembling together" with the new covenant church and go BACK to Judaism's animal sacrifices. In other words after receiving the knowledge that the Son of God has come and died and rose, they hesitated and thought to return to ...[text shortened]... forsake the new covenant and return to another means of atonement towards God.

Cont. below[/b]

"For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins.

But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries.

If the Hebrew believers had abandoned the church, the assembling together and returned to Judaism, there would remain no sacrifice for sins in the economy of God. And no other sacrifice for sins would be necessary or possible.

All the sacrifices of the old covenant had been altogether REPLACED by the ONE sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary. There Christ offered Himself once for all as the sacrifice for our sins (7:27; 10:10,12). And there the sacrifices for sins CEASED -

"Otherwise would they not have ceased to be offered ..." (Hebrews 10:2a)

It is not possible that they could go back to offering bulls and goats for their sins.

Now to the serious dispensational consequences in the kingdom age going back to the old religion. This is the possible result of their sinning willfully by returning to animal sacrifices:

1.) Fearful expectation of judgment -

Elsewhere in the New Testament we see that all Christians have to come to the judgment seat of Christ. And this not to determing their eternal destiny which has already been settled in the affirmative. It is judgment to see what their position and reward will be in the thousand year millennial kingdom of God. This is the thousand years PRECEEDING the new heaven and new earth for eternity (See Rev. 20 - 22).

2.) Fervor of fire , which is to consume the adversaries -

Paul warned that some Christians would be saved yet so as through fire. They will "suffer loss" .

If someone complains "Oh but that is clearly not a literal hot fire there in First Corinthians 3:14,15 because it is his WORKS that are burned up."

I agree that a symbolic hot fire is a better interpretation. However, our God is not so easily put in a box. It may depend upon how SERIOUS the failure was as to how serious the loss suffered will be.

Don't argue. In Revelation 2 Jesus warned the church in Smyrna that there was a possibility that some defeated believers would be "hurt of the second death".

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no mean be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)

This is a reward spoken in negative terms. The one who overcomes will NOT have something happen - "by no means be hurt of the second death. " The second death is the lake of fire.

Jesus did not say destroyed forever here. But He did imply that in some cases a defeated Christian could be hurt by the lake of fire.

The hurt is to get a taste rather than to suffer forever. Here is the bottom line -

In the New Testament the latitude and scope of possible corrections available to God to those who are saved forever is very broad. It embraces warnings from an large scope of possible things our Father could do to correct His children.

The worldly judge has many things at his disposal to correct an offender. The judge may fine him.
The judge may make him do community service.
The judge may give him a suspended sentence.
The judge may send him to jail.
In some countries the judge may order the offender to be whipped or cained.

Why would we not consider that our Father Who will bring us before the judgment seat of Christ before the millennium would not have a wide array of possible things He could do to teach us a lesson ? Think about it.

Short of executing a crimimal with the death sentence, a worldly judge can do many possible things raging from light to heavy to very heavy. Why would we expect that the Judge of all the earth could not have a wide scope of things He could do as a Father to His children.

Judgement begins at the house of God.
And the Lord will judge His people.

In some cases He could even HURT the man saved forever with the second death.

It is time for the church to wake up and realize that once saved always saved does not mean our Father's hands are TIED as to discipline AFTER the second coming of Jesus.

So though I agree that the fire in First Corinthians burning up the wood, grass, and stubble of worthless works is probably symbolic "heat", I would not be overly confident that being saved yet so as through fire could have a large scope of degrees of unpleasantness.

I do not want to find out HOW punished I can be short of eternal perdition. I only say that the New Testament, I think, definitely indicates the Father of eternally saved children has a larger scope of possible remedies then we think.

Now if you cannot see this then you go and believe Rajk999. God has only one thing to do with the immature Christian - make him or her un-born again, take away from them the Holy Spirit, un-redeem them forever, and revoke their being saved. They are no longer His people.

However the writer said "The Lord will judge HIS ... people."

Originally posted by Rajk999
All I do is repeat what Christ said and you call me names. You therefore would call Jesus Christ the same names. You, Jaywill and a couple others here are the Pharisee-type ie hypocritical mouthworshipping type that Christ condemned. You need to examine yourself and your doctrine.

Rajk999, deal with the argument. The issue is not me. It is the argument, the interpretation of Hebrews chapter 10, chapter 6, Luke 16, etc.

Originally posted by divegeester
Well at least I didn't call you an "apostate" or judge you spiritually as you are doing to me.

I am only telling you how you come across in your posts; perhaps irl you are not like this, but it is my honest experience of you here. You on the other hand have no idea of mine or jaywill's spiritual state and you have no right to comment on it.

So, though Rajk999 and Robbie may not like me returning to First Corinthians 3 I do it anyway.

1.) "he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

Hebrews 10:27 - "a certain fearful expectation of judgment"
Could the saved person experiencing the suffering of loss in 1 Cor. 3:15 be also having a fearful expectation of judgment ?

I say yes.

2.) "expectation of ... the fervor of fire"

Could the saved Christian suffering loss have such an anxiety ?

I say yes, very possibly.

3.) "fervor of fire, which is to consume the advesaries"

Could the saved Christian who is being saved yet so as through fire, and suffering loss feel that he is being handled like one of God's adversaries ?

I say yes. Such could have that feeling seeing now the foolishness of their having neglected dispositional sanctification during the age of grace.

4.) "worthy of worse punishment [than physical death] who has trampled underfoot the Son of God .... etc."

Could the Christian passing through the suffering of loss and the being saved yet so as through fire feel that he is undergoing a punishment worse than physical death ?

I think the answer is yes. He could feel that way. "This is worst than dying! This is brutal here before the Lord Jesus being scolded." He is being rebuked by the One who lives within him!

And I showed that it is unwise to put parameters on what "suffer loss" could mean short of eternal perdition.

I agree with you! Faith without love is like a gong clanging in the wind

Originally posted by Rajk999
All I do is repeat what Christ said and you call me names. You therefore would call Jesus Christ the same names. You, Jaywill and a couple others here are the Pharisee-type ie hypocritical mouthworshipping type that Christ condemned. You need to examine yourself and your doctrine.