Refuting Rajk999ism

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have a point, something I said you disagree with?

My point is that we will be doing the works God has for us, and we will do
them out of the love for God and our fellowman, yet I do not count God
as HAVING to save me because of my efforts. I rely only on the grace of
God not my works.

You believe that God must save you due to your efforts? I'm ...[text shortened]... and ignore God in their own lives,
do you count them as brothers and sisters in Christ?
Kelly

I don't believe anything of the sort, life is a free gift, works are the indication that a faith is alive and well. Thats all I am saying.

Originally posted by Rajk999
These modern Christian churches try to separate faith and love and make the point that you are saved by faith and not by works. In doing that they automatically discourage their followers from doing good works with the idea that good works is an insult to Christ 'finished' work on the cross. So many people feel that if you do good works you are actually doin ...[text shortened]... e and charity. The claim is that they live by faith and the justification is by faith not works.

I agree with you, if you have faith and love you will be doing all the good
works that God has for us to do, and you would fight to get it done
overcoming what stands in your way, because it needs done and love is
driving you.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You do not know how to meet the needs of people around you, you do not
know how to care about those around you, seriously?
Kelly

not by sitting in my armchair 'loving', them i don't, that's 4sure. How anyone can read the scriptures and miss the point of the public ministry is quite beyond me.

(Romans 10:11-15) For the Scripture says: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is it possible for someone to go house to house with Bible in hand preached their doctrine and still not have love for their fellowman? Or are you saying that house to house going = love.

This may irritate some christains out there. There are children of God in this world that do not know they are His children. These people do not understand what Jesus is. (in the same manner as a said christain). They may have not accepted Jesus as thier savior. Yet, love flows through them like a flood. It is not a superficial love, but something deep.
I'm telling you, Jesus lives in these people.
If you do not agree with me, then explain. God is Love. Jesus is Love. What part of God is not Jesus. And if a person deeply loves, then Jesus must be present to. What of the Jews in Hebrew Scripture. Scripture states that Jesus was not revieled to the Hebrews. So Moses talks to God the Father. "NO ONE can go to the Father, but though Me". Jesus was already present IN Moses, but he never knew it.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
The problem that occurs is ussage of the words. Faith brings us to salvation in Jesus Christ, true enough. Then in recieving salvation, we recieve Christ, Jesus, God, and in recieving God we recieve love. As Paul states (sorry if this sounds repetitive) faith wihout love is nothing. Like a gong clanging in the wind.

So to recieve Jesus we need faith, wh ...[text shortened]... ove is a flame, that can not be hidden under a basket. Love is an action that is never quenched.

Listen I agree that some people ask people to get saved by saying some
special words and their motivation is no different that trying to avoid going
to jail, without actually turning their lives over to the Lord.

That event I just described above is not what I'm talking about when
someone comes to God and asks for forgiveness and have them rely
on God's grace, because we are sinners before a Holy God.

There are going to many who are going to find out that the lives they led
have nothing to do with God, but instead living for their own flesh. It will
also be true that there are going to many who believe God owes them
due to the works they did to make God accept them.

Those that come to God and turn their lives over to Him through Jesus
Christ will be saved as we accept that was done for us, and serve Him
because He is worthy and He give us His love and grace for each other,
His Spirit will guide us, and teach us.
Kelly

Originally posted by Pudgenik
This may irritate some christains out there. There are children of God in this world that do not know they are His children. These people do not understand what Jesus is. (in the same manner as a said christain). They may have not accepted Jesus as thier savior. Yet, love flows through them like a flood. It is not a superficial love, but something deep.
...[text shortened]... can go to the Father, but though Me". Jesus was already present IN Moses, but he never knew it.

Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the
Father except through Him. So that way is very narrow, the good new is
that even though that way is narrow is it accepts all that come to God
through Jesus Christ, without Jesus you are not going to come to the Father.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not by sitting in my armchair 'loving', them i don't, that's 4sure. How anyone can read the scriptures and miss the point of the public ministry is quite beyond me.

(Romans 10:11-15) For the Scripture says: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over a ...[text shortened]... ] Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things.

I'm sorry where did you see me say love them by sitting on my arm chair?
You should address the things I said instead of putting out things I did not
say and address them.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I don't believe anything of the sort, life is a free gift, works are the indication that a faith is alive and well. Thats all I am saying.

We are not talking about life as being a gift, please stick on topic.
I've not denied that there will be works, I deny I have to rely on them, I
only count what God has done for me as making me worthy. I count all
other things my life has going for it as trash before knowing God.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the
Father except through Him. So that way is very narrow, the good new is
that even though that way is narrow is its acceptance to is to all that come
to God through Jesus Christ, without Jesus you are not going to come to the
Father.
Kelly

You are apsolutely correct. Just as i said, No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Enoc was a great example of that.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
This may irritate some christains out there. There are children of God in this world that do not know they are His children. These people do not understand what Jesus is. (in the same manner as a said christain). They may have not accepted Jesus as thier savior. Yet, love flows through them like a flood. It is not a superficial love, but something deep.
...[text shortened]... can go to the Father, but though Me". Jesus was already present IN Moses, but he never knew it.

I have stated stuff along these lines around here on more than one occasion and Christians just 'laugh'.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
This may irritate some christains out there. There are children of God in this world that do not know they are His children. These people do not understand what Jesus is. (in the same manner as a said christain). They may have not accepted Jesus as thier savior. Yet, love flows through them like a flood. It is not a superficial love, but something deep.
...[text shortened]... can go to the Father, but though Me". Jesus was already present IN Moses, but he never knew it.

Now this was an interesting post. I hope I can comment on it latter maybe.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have stated stuff along these lines around here on more than one occasion and Christians just 'laugh'.

I do not laugh at your posts. I only try to defend when you attack me on justification by faith.

My defending is with an intention to help you not to misunderstand some things.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sorry where did you see me say love them by sitting on my arm chair?
You should address the things I said instead of putting out things I did not
say and address them.
Kelly

so i asked you what you do, you fobbed us off with an insipid platitude and we are still unaware what it is you do to DEMONSTRATE this alleged love that you have for God and people, why dont you answer and tell us? Is it a secret?

Originally posted by sonship
I do not laugh at your posts. I only try to defend when you attack me on justification by faith.

My defending is with an intention to help you not to misunderstand some things.

First remove the plank from your own doctrine and then maybe you can see the speck in mine.

A simple and fundamental thing like the Sermon on the Mount you see fit to claim that Christ meant that for disciples [12 people] only. Your entire view of eternal life and justification and grace is all screwed up. The reason is simple. You do not preach the basis of Christ teachings of love and charity.

You preach mouth worship first.
Salvation comes next [salvation which God himself cannot revoke]
Then if someone desires then maybe they can love God and love others [ if they feel like it]

That has to be the most screwed up doctrine on the planet. Even Hindus and Buddhists preach more about Jesus Christ than you do.

Pugnik

This may irritate some christains out there. There are children of God in this world that do not know they are His children.

There are people who do not realize that they have been regenerated.
There are people who do not realize they have God living in them.

Everyone is made in the image of God and therefore does have something of the goodness of God kind of written in their design.

This is like a glove being in the image of a hand.
It has the same shape as a living hand.

So some can say "There is a hand in that glove."
They really mean that the image and picture of a hand the design of the glove. The glove models a hand. So in one sense we can say "There is a hand in that glove" though the glove really may be empty.

All men are made in the image of God.
God is not living in all men though.

What of the Jews in Hebrew Scripture. Scripture states that Jesus was not revieled to the Hebrews. So Moses talks to God the Father. "NO ONE can go to the Father, but though Me". Jesus was already present IN Moses, but he never knew it.

Jesus had not been incarnated as a man during the life of Moses. But Jesus Christ is God. And God has always been.

And Paul says that it was Christ whom Moses and the Israelites interacted with. In function He was there because He is also the uncreated eternal God before the incarnation.

So the New Testament mentions Christ in the Old Testament in that sense.

"And all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And all ate the same spiritual food, And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ." ( 1 Cor. 10:2-4)

The rock that gushed out water to quench their thirst, was a spiritual rock definitely meaning Christ.

Moses suffered the reproach of the Christ -

"By faith Moses ... refused to be called the son of Pharoah's daughter, choosing rather to be ill treated with the people of God than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, considering the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt ..." (Hebrews 11:24-26)

Before incarnation the eternal Spirit of God is even called by Peter "the Spirit of Christ" -

" Concerning this salvation the prophets, who prophesied concerning the grace that was to come unto you, sought and searched diligentlu, Searching into what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them was making clear, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories after these." ( 1 Peter 1:10,11)

Christ is really the center and the circumference of the whole Bible - both the Old and New Testaments.

The mystery was hidden from them as to the details of God's incarnation in the man the Lord Jesus. The Christ is God Himself from eternity.

Yes man without the Lord Jesus has a certain love he can love with.
We are made in the image of God. And Christ is also the image of the invisible God.

In the new covenant our love must be Christ Himself. No other will build up the Body of Christ. The natural love cannot fulfill God's purpose to build up the New Jerusalem.

So we need to be born of God. We need to be transformed and conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son.

Those not knowing God and even opposing God and Christ, in view that they are made in the image of God, do have a natural love, natural care, natural good doing, that they may live by. It is better than evil.

But only Christ Himself flowing out of man can build up the New Jerusalem. And only Christ Himself as the indwelling life giving Spirit can accomplish the building of the church.