Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    24 Aug '18 04:32
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/23/white-farmers-trump-south-africa-tucker-carlson-far-right-influence

    "White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind
    The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa
    was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News
    Corp’s media promotion, it has moved into the policy realm. "

    "On Monday night, the Fox News presenter Tucker Carlson once
    again talked about the alleged plight of white South African farmers
    on his Fox News program.

    On Twitter, Donald Trump indicated that he had been watching.
    The president’s tweet called for further study, but treated the “large
    scale killing of farmers” as a settled fact, when reporting indicates
    that against the background of a generally high murder rate in South Africa,
    there is no evidence of white farmers being specifically targeted.

    But Trump’s tweet came at the end of a long process whereby the
    far-right idea of “white genocide” in South Africa had been mainstreamed,
    working its way from far-right websites and forums, into the rightward
    edge of mainstream media, and then into policy proposals.
    News Corp outlets have played an outsized role in that process."

    "This development has been celebrated overnight by the racist far
    right, but so too has the whole process by which “white genocide”
    has become a matter of broader public debate.

    Earlier this year, an anonymous podcaster on the white genocide-focused
    “White Rabbit Radio” said: “This was the province of Stormfront five,
    10 years ago, white genocide in South Africa. Now it is mainstream.”
  2. Behind the scenes
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    24 Aug '18 06:291 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/23/white-farmers-trump-south-africa-tucker-carlson-far-right-influence

    "White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind
    The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa
    was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News
    Corp’s media promotion, it h ...[text shortened]... vince of Stormfront five,
    10 years ago, white genocide in South Africa. Now it is mainstream.”
    You'll find as Donald Trump's legal situation grows more ugly, his statements will contain even less logic than before. Trump also maintains cooperating witnesses "should almost be illegal" and "You can't knock the National Enquirer" a newspaper that's maintained "Elvis Presley is living on other planets" and a plastic "bat boy" is fighting alongside American troops in Iraq.

    I don't care if Trump says stupid things, I do however care that he feels increasingly threatened by Robert Mueller's investigation, and his personal attorney cooperating with prosecutors. This is the same man that has weapons at his disposal that can kill billions of people rather quickly.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/08/almost-literal-mob-boss-donald-trump-wants-to-ban-flipping.html

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-primaries/278668-trump-defend-oswald-cruz-allegations-you-cant-knock-the
  3. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    24 Aug '18 09:41
    Originally posted by @mchill
    You'll find as Donald Trump's legal situation grows more ugly, his statements will contain even less logic than before. Trump also maintains cooperating witnesses "should almost be illegal" and "You can't knock the National Enquirer" a newspaper that's maintained "Elvis Presley is living on other planets" and a plastic "bat boy" is fighting alongside America ...[text shortened]... om/blogs/ballot-box/gop-primaries/278668-trump-defend-oswald-cruz-allegations-you-cant-knock-the
    Oh, it would be so funny if the senile old git did set off a nuclear war...

    I think that’s what it will take for people to wake up and see what they’re doing (not only Americans).
  4. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Aug '18 09:48
    Do you think that seizing the property and guns of an ethnic minority while other leaders talk about how they do not belong there, etc., is a bad thing?

    Do you think that might be a precursor to a sort of disaster?

    Keep in mind, also, that this all happens in a nation marred by crime and general isntability. It's a catastrophe.
  5. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Aug '18 09:49
    I also kind of wonder how Duchess would feel if the Indonesians and Malays were talking about seizing the property of Chinese expats...

    Would there be a different feeling?

    Would we be talking about teh values of cosmopolitanism and a mixed, open society, instead of trying to make it sound like caring about the fate of Boers in S. Africa is some paranoid and illogical position?
  6. Joined
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    24 Aug '18 10:292 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/23/white-farmers-trump-south-africa-tucker-carlson-far-right-influence

    "White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind
    The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa
    was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News
    Corp’s media promotion, it h ...[text shortened]... vince of Stormfront five,
    10 years ago, white genocide in South Africa. Now it is mainstream.”
    The number of "farm murders" has risen significantly over the past few years. Many of them are very brutal. However, I would not go as far as to say that it's genocide as it's not out of step with the general high murder rate here in SA. Murders in the townships are a daily occurrence (drugs are the main culprit) yet most don't make the news. Unfortunately, rape is also widespread - even female babies are not safe. Every few months a child is kidnapped, raped and murdered. Their body is almost always found dumped somewhere, usually in the forest. The perpetrators are rarely brought to justice.

    The problems are A) drugs and alcohol, B) gangs and their "initiation" (usually raping someone, more often a woman but men as well) and C) the widespread possession of weapons and general violent culture. I would note that the "coloured" or mixed-race community is plagued by far more violence than the black community. The gang warfare in "coloured" areas kills many in collateral damage. My sister had to spend 2 years at a clinic in Hanover Park (gang central) as part of her mandatory community service for becoming a doctor. She barely avoided crossfire many a time getting to work and dealt with gunshot wounds every day.

    Living here requires a degree of paranoia and common sense. It's just stupid not to be a bit paranoid when the consequences can be so severe. Many foreigners come here and do foolish things (like walking alone without a pepper spray, hiking at night, carrying valuables in public etc) that just puts them at risk.

    I don't want to give the impression that it's totally horrific because it's not. If you are streetwise and stay in the right areas you will be fine.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    24 Aug '18 10:37
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    The number of "farm murders" has risen significantly over the past while. Many of them are very brutal. However, I would not go as far as to say that it's genocide as it's not out of step with the general high murder rate here in SA. Murders in the townships are a daily occurrence (drugs are the main culprit) yet most don't make the news. Unfortunately, r ...[text shortened]... y horrific because it's not. If you are streetwise and stay in the right areas you will be fine.
    Actually:

    Murders of farmers in South Africa are at a 20-year low, research by one of the country’s biggest farmers’ organisations claims.

    Forty-seven farmers were killed in 2017-18, according to statistics compiled by AgriSA, an association of hundreds of agricultural associations across South Africa. This is consistent with a steady decline since a peak of violence in 1998 when 153 died.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/27/murders-of-farmers-in-south-africa-at-20-year-low-research-shows
  8. Joined
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    24 Aug '18 11:161 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Actually:

    Murders of farmers in South Africa are at a 20-year low, research by one of the country’s biggest farmers’ organisations claims.

    Forty-seven farmers were killed in 2017-18, according to statistics compiled by AgriSA, an association of hundreds of agricultural associations across South Africa. This is consistent with a steady decline sinc ...[text shortened]... eguardian.com/world/2018/jun/27/murders-of-farmers-in-south-africa-at-20-year-low-research-shows
    Well, farmers are in the spotlight now because of the whole debate about land reform and the general situation in South Africa has definitely deteriorated the last few years, but coverage of "farm murders" in the foreign press is certainly overdone and ignores that the deterioration is across the board. Figures aside, I would say that the article is not an accurate assessment of the situation in South African politics. In this sentence: "All major political parties now agree on the need for extensive land reform", I knew instantly that the person who wrote that article doesn't know much about South African politics (The opposition party is strongly against land reform and even the ANC is split down the middle). The Zuma-ites left Cyril what they deemed a poisoned chalice (the land issue) in an attempt to undermine him after he ousted Zuma earlier this year. The ANC is very factional and Cyril is trying to fudge the land issue for long enough to make it the elections next year when he will try to purge the Zuma faction with a strong victory. Believe me; I have connections in the ANC government and I know the quiet movings in the corridors of the union buildings.

    Farm murders is not a topic that keeps me awake at night and I don't subscribe to the white victimhood narrative (There are far more important issues to deal with in South Africa). I do not own any property in an urban area here, let alone a farm (I just study here). However, if and when land reform takes place, it must be done in a careful manner that does not lead to a capital flight like what happened with Zimbabwe. About no South Africans want that to happen. It's easy to take a hardline stance from overseas, but remember there are people here whose economic futures could be threatened if land reform is mismanaged - Zimbabwe, as an example, is utterly ruined.
  9. Joined
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    24 Aug '18 11:383 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Actually:

    Murders of farmers in South Africa are at a 20-year low, research by one of the country’s biggest farmers’ organisations claims.

    Forty-seven farmers were killed in 2017-18, according to statistics compiled by AgriSA, an association of hundreds of agricultural associations across South Africa. This is consistent with a steady decline sinc ...[text shortened]... eguardian.com/world/2018/jun/27/murders-of-farmers-in-south-africa-at-20-year-low-research-shows
    it was once higher so it is alright now ? you are truly an idiot!
  10. Joined
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    24 Aug '18 11:40
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/23/white-farmers-trump-south-africa-tucker-carlson-far-right-influence

    "White farmers: how a far-right idea was planted in Donald Trump's mind
    The idea that there is a ‘genocide’ of white farmers in South Africa
    was once the province of conspiracy theorists but, thanks to News
    Corp’s media promotion, it h ...[text shortened]... vince of Stormfront five,
    10 years ago, white genocide in South Africa. Now it is mainstream.”
    judge jenine wrote a book about people like you.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    24 Aug '18 12:131 edit
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    Well, farmers are in the spotlight now because of the whole debate about land reform and the general situation in South Africa has definitely deteriorated the last few years, but coverage of "farm murders" in the foreign press is certainly overdone and ignores that the deterioration is across the board. Figures aside, I would say that the article is not a ...[text shortened]... s could be threatened if land reform is mismanaged - Zimbabwe, as an example, is utterly ruined.
    It's not accurate to say the "opposition party is against land reform". They are against the Constitutional change that allows expropriation without compensation, but that is not the same thing.

    Whites, a small minority, have maintained an economic stranglehold over the SA economy to the detriment of the majority. They are going to have to accept that that situation cannot continue.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    24 Aug '18 12:17
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    it was once higher so it is alright now ? you are truly an idiot!
    No murder is "alright". But it is also not "alright" to exaggerate the incidence of such murders to pander to the white nationalists in this country as the Donald did.
  13. Behind the scenes
    Joined
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    24 Aug '18 18:05
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Oh, it would be so funny if the senile old git did set off a nuclear war...

    I think that’s what it will take for people to wake up and see what they’re doing (not only Americans).
    Oh, it would be so funny if the senile old git did set off a nuclear war...



    Sorry, but I'm not finding the humor in that one.
  14. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    24 Aug '18 18:10
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Oh, it would be so funny if the senile old git did set off a nuclear war...



    Sorry, but I'm not finding the humor in that one.
    That’s because you don’t see the larger perspective
  15. Zugzwang
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    24 Aug '18 18:23
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    I also kind of wonder how Duchess would feel if the Indonesians and Malays were talking about seizing the property of Chinese expats...

    Would there be a different feeling?

    Would we be talking about teh values of cosmopolitanism and a mixed, open society, instead of trying to make it sound like caring about the fate of Boers in S. Africa is some paranoid and illogical position?
    Philokalia seems ignorant of the well-known facts that Indonesia (when the right-wing dictator
    Suharto seized power with US support) already committed mass murders (near genocide)
    against its Chinese minority (a scapegoat) in 1965-66 and Malaysia has had for decades
    a Bumiputera (extreme affirmative action for the Malay majority) policy discriminating
    against its Chinese and Indian minorities.

    I think differently toward historical facts than right-wing propaganda racist fantasies.
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