Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 00:00
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/08/violent-extremists-share-one-thing-gender-michael-kimmel

    "Almost all violent extremists share one thing: their gender:
    Most people who commit acts of terrorist violence are young men.
    We overlook their gender to our peril."
    --Michael Kimmel

    "Joining rightwing groups lent a gendered coherence to their sense of
    emasculation and frustration. Their manhood had been taken from them
    by unseen conspiratorial forces, and their recruitment was seen as a
    way to reclaim their manhood and to restore that sense of entitlement.
    Proving one’s masculinity plays a central role in recruitment, or entry,
    into the movement. Entry is a gendered effort to ward off the shame that
    comes with their failures – their failures as men. ...
    It’s not just that they are male – anatomically so, chromosomally so –
    but that they see themselves as men. They enter feeling like failed men,
    like men who need to prove their masculinity, need to feel like real men,
    yet are thwarted at every turn."

    "But I argue that we cannot fully understand violent extremist movements
    without a gender analysis. And, more than that, we cannot adequately
    meet this challenge without understanding how gender – masculinity –
    is so deeply and intimately enmeshed in participants’ experience."

    "So this is how it works: These young men feel entitled to a sense of belonging
    and community, of holding unchallenged moral authority over women and
    children, and of feeling that they count in the world and that their lives matter.

    Experiencing threats to the lives they feel they deserve leads these young men
    to feel ashamed and humiliated. And it is this aggrieved entitlement –
    entitlement thwarted and frustrated – that leads some men to search for
    a way to redeem themselves as men, to restore and retrieve that sense
    of manhood that has been lost.

    Joining up is a form of masculine compensation, an alternate route to
    proving manhood. To not see this as gendered is to miss the point."
  2. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1407
    09 Apr '18 04:58
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/08/violent-extremists-share-one-thing-gender-michael-kimmel

    "Almost all violent extremists share one thing: their gender:
    Most people who commit acts of terrorist violence are young men.
    We overlook their gender to our peril."
    --Michael Kimmel

    "Joining rightwing groups lent a gendered coherence to thei ...[text shortened]... ion, an alternate route to
    proving manhood. To not see this as gendered is to miss the point."
    An accurate explanation of the problem, so may I humbly ask: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 05:101 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    An accurate explanation of the problem, so may I humbly ask: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.

    Here's another book by Michael Kimmel, an American sociologist and authority on masculinity:
    _Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era_

    "Kimmel believes it comes down to aggrieved entitlement: the school shootings perpetrated by
    middle-class white male students, the men’s-rights movement, white supremacists, the
    fathers’-rights groups, etc. There is, he elaborates, a strong (and getting dangerously stronger)
    feeling, among some white male Americans, that they are losing their place in society.
    The era of entitlement, when the good jobs and the best stuff was the white male American’s due,
    has passed, replaced by a society in which—at least in the skewed view of the people
    about whom Kimmel is writing—white males are being systematically marginalized,
    passed over in favor of minorities and women."
    --David Pitt (review for Booklist)

    That accurately describes how many, if not most, white American men here act.
  4. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1407
    09 Apr '18 14:411 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.

    Here's another book by Michael Kimmel, an American sociologist and authority on masculinity:
    _Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era_

    "Kimmel believes it comes down to aggrieved entitlement: the school shootings perpetrated by
    middl ...[text shortened]... w for Booklist)

    That accurately describes how many, if not most, white American men here act.
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.



    I'm sure this is true, but this does not address my question, so I ask again: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
  5. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    09 Apr '18 15:291 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.



    I'm sure this is true, but this does not address my question, so I ask again: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
    quoting D64: These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.

    And even more so, they are likely to listen to the voices of their loved ones, if they are fortunate enough to have any, and ultimately they have to get past their own denial mechanisms and stalling tactics and do a candid self-evaluation. This has to happen on a person by person basis.
  6. Standard memberHandyAndy
    Non sum qualis eram
    At the edge
    Joined
    23 Sep '06
    Moves
    18031
    09 Apr '18 15:40
    Originally posted by @mchill
    "These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'."

    I'm sure this is true, but this does not address my question, so I ask again: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
    Nothing less than castration.
  7. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
    C'e di mezzo il mar!
    Joined
    06 Nov '15
    Moves
    22121
    09 Apr '18 16:00
    Originally posted by @handyandy
    Nothing less than castration.
    The shortening of those members in society... would certainly curtail their violent insertions.😉😀
  8. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    09 Apr '18 16:59
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.

    Here's another book by Michael Kimmel, an American sociologist and authority on masculinity:
    _Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era_

    "Kimmel believes it comes down to aggrieved entitlement: the school shootings perpetrated by
    middl ...[text shortened]... w for Booklist)

    That accurately describes how many, if not most, white American men here act.
    so one reason a human being decides to commit terrorism is because men "like him" didn't convince him not to?

    do you honestly think terrorists have a bond with non terrorist males because they both have a penis? seriously?
  9. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    09 Apr '18 18:233 edits
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    so one reason a human being decides to commit terrorism is because men "like him" didn't convince him not to?

    do you honestly think terrorists have a bond with non terrorist males because they both have a penis? seriously?
    The reasons that violent men would be more receptive to listening to other men than to D64, if that were shown to be the case, may have little to do with the issues, but may have everything to do with men being men dealing with the personality of D64. D64 may be an effective flag waver to fellow reformers, more than a bridge builder.
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 19:48
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    so one reason a human being decides to commit terrorism is because men "like him" didn't convince him not to?

    do you honestly think terrorists have a bond with non terrorist males because they both have a penis? seriously?
    Zahlanzi seems incapable of comprehending what Michael Kimmel wrote:

    ""But I argue that we cannot fully understand violent extremist movements
    without a gender analysis. And, more than that, we cannot adequately
    meet this challenge without understanding how gender – masculinity –
    is so deeply and intimately enmeshed in participants’ experience."

    "So this is how it works: These young men feel entitled to a sense of belonging
    and community, of holding unchallenged moral authority over women and
    children, and of feeling that they count in the world and that their lives matter.

    Experiencing threats to the lives they feel they deserve leads these young men
    to feel ashamed and humiliated. And it is this aggrieved entitlement –
    entitlement thwarted and frustrated – that leads some men to search for
    a way to redeem themselves as men, to restore and retrieve that sense
    of manhood that has been lost.

    Joining up is a form of masculine compensation, an alternate route to proving manhood.
    TO NOT SEE THIS AS GENDERED IS TO MISS THE POINT."
    --Michael Kimmel

    According to MIchael KImmel, Zahlanzi has missed the point.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 19:561 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    These violent men are much less likely to listen to me than to other men of their own 'tribes'.

    I'm sure this is true, but this does not address my question, so I ask again: What is Duchess's solution to this violent male extremism?
    Michael Kimmel's a sociologist who's an academic authority on men (particularly white
    American men like himself) and masculinity. That's not my academic field.
    So, if he were sincerely interested, Mchill should read Michael Kimmel's books rather than troll me.

    _The Gendered Society_ by Michael Kimmel

    "The sixth edition of The Gendered Society explores current thinking about gender, both
    inside academia and in our everyday lives. Michael Kimmel challenges the claim that
    gender is limited to women's experiences--his compelling and balanced study of gender
    includes both masculine and feminine perspectives.

    Kimmel makes three bold and persuasive statements about gender. First, he demonstrates
    that gender differences are often extremely exaggerated; in fact, he argues that men and
    women have much more in common than we think they do. Kimmel also challenges the
    pop psychologists who suggest that gender difference is the cause of inequality between the sexes;
    instead, he reveals that the reverse is true-gender inequality itself is the cause
    of the differences between men and women. Finally, he illustrates that gender is not merely
    an element of individual identity, but a socially constructed institutional phenomenon."
    --Oxford University Press description

    "Gender differences are often extremely exaggerated."
    Many, if not most, men here 'extremely exaggerate' gender differences.

    "the pop psychologists who suggest that gender difference is the cause of inequality between the sexes"

    It's popular for sexist men to believe that biological differences alone can explain why,
    for instance, women tend to get paid less than men for doing the same work.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52853
    09 Apr '18 19:58
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Zahlanzi seems incapable of comprehending what Michael Kimmel wrote:

    ""But I argue that we cannot fully understand violent extremist movements
    without a gender analysis. And, more than that, we cannot adequately
    meet this challenge without understanding how gender – masculinity –
    is so deeply and intimately enmeshed in participants’ experience." ...[text shortened]... SS THE POINT."
    --Michael Kimmel

    According to MIchael KImmel, Zahlanzi has missed the point.
    What does that say to the extremists who start their reign of terror fully expecting to be killed themselves? They would not be around to get the accolades they think they deserve from their fellow terrorists. I'm sure his memory will be honored among the terrorist crowd but he would not know anything about that since he would be dead.
  13. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 20:062 edits
    Originally posted by @js357 to Zahlanzi
    The reasons that violent men would be more receptive to listening to other men than to D64, if that were shown to be the case, may have little to do with the issues, but may have everything to do with men being men dealing with the personality of D64. D64 may be an effective flag waver to fellow reformers, more than a bridge builder.I
    WRONG. JS357 keeps showing his unacknowledged prejudices.

    The reality that men are more likely to listen with respect to what other men tell them
    (particularly if these men are perceived as other members of their 'tribes' ) than to women
    typically has nothing to do with the women's personalities. It has everything to do with
    them being women. That's how sexism works. And JS357's post is another example
    of a man (in this case, a 'liberal' man) making some attempt to rationalize some sexism.

    When a man's sexually harassing a woman and she tells him to stop, her personality usually
    does not matter that much. Whether she's stereotypically soft, sweet, and meek or an
    outspoken 'militant' feminist, the man's not that likely to comply BECAUSE HE SIMPLY
    DOES NOT RESPECT WOMEN, NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT RESPECT HER.

    If a man's harassing a woman, would he be more likely to stop if a man or a woman tells him to stop?
    In reality, it usually has more of an effect if other men tell a man to stop sexually harassing
    a woman than if she or other women tell him so. The man tend to care much more about
    what other men (particularly in his own 'tribe' ) think of him than about what women think of him.

    In an earlier thread that I created, I QUOTED a 'Guardian' article about sexism.
    My original post received 20+ 'thumbs down'. As I recall, Shavixmir wrote that he did not
    comprehend the extreme hostility (from men) toward me when all that I had done was
    QUOTE a 'Guardian' article. But JS357 may prefer to blame my personality.

    In this thread's original post, I QUOTED Michael KImmel, a white American man, writing about men.
    I added no comment of my own. The post already has received overwhelming 'thumbs down' (6 vs 1 'thumbs up' ).
    JS357 may prefer to blame my allegedly nasty 'anti-male' personality that offends men
    just by QUOTING a (white American) man writing about other men and masculinity.

    The reality is that there's ample misogyny in this male-dominated forum. And even men
    like JS357 (whom I don't regard as a misogynist) may condone or rationalize that misogyny.
    Men often respond very differently to being told the same thing by a woman than by a man.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    09 Apr '18 20:19
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    What does that say to the extremists who start their reign of terror fully expecting to be killed themselves? They would not be around to get the accolades they think they deserve from their fellow terrorists. I'm sure his memory will be honored among the terrorist crowd but he would not know anything about that since he would be dead.
    "I'm sure his memory will be honored among the terrorist crowd but he would not know
    anything about that since he would be dead."
    --Sonhouse

    While he (most likely) was still alive, he could be reasonably certain of having his memory honoured after his death.

    Does Sonhouse believe that none of the Japanese kamikaze pilots expected to be
    honoured after death by their families, friends, and country?
  15. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    09 Apr '18 20:48
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    WRONG. JS357 keeps showing his unacknowledged prejudices.

    The reality that men are more likely to listen with respect to what other men tell them
    (particularly if these men are perceived as other members of their 'tribes' ) than to women
    typically has nothing to do with the women's personalities. It has everything to do with
    them being women. T ...[text shortened]... gyny.
    Men often respond very differently to being told the same thing by a woman than by a man.
    “But JS357 may prefer to blame my personality.“

    I do not “blame” your personality. I have sexism, racism, and other ideologies baked into me. There is no blame to be usefully had here. You are uncompromising, and that makes you a better analyst and flag waver, than a bridge builder. That’s a simple fact. One thing flag wavers do is keep the bridge builders from over-compromising. But your thin skin gets in your way. Keep it up, your voice is needed in the grand panoply but could be focused less on self defense. Don’t waste your time with the third-person diatribes, because everyone here is used to them and just tunes you out. I will go into that mode now, unapologetically.
Back to Top