Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    20 Feb '19 18:50
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/20/florida-boy-arrested-refused-pledge-of-allegiance-school

    "Florida schoolboy arrested after refusing to recite pledge of allegiance"

    "The incident began when the boy refused to stand up for the pledge,
    and a substitute teacher insisted he do so, even though students
    are allowed to opt out of reciting the pledge."

    "The boy said he would not stand “because the flag of this country
    was racist”, and said he considered the national anthem “offensive
    to black people”, the teacher said in a statement to authorities.

    Alvarez responded by asking the child why he didn’t leave the
    United States if things were so bad, according to her own account.
    “They brought me here,” said the student, who is black."

    “To be clear, the student was NOT arrested for refusing to participate in
    the pledge; students are not required to participate in the pledge of allegiance.”
    --Police statement

    "An attorney for the family will file a civil rights complaint with the
    Department of Education, he told the Ledger.

    The arrest drew widespread condemnation, including from the
    American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). “This is outrageous,” the ACLU
    of Florida said in a tweet. “Students do not lose their first amendment
    rights when they enter the schoolhouse gates. This is a prime
    example of the over-policing of black students in school."

    Is Colin Kaepernick a role model for the boy?
  2. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:002 edits
    @Duchess64

    The Pledge of allegiance to be read in schools came from a socialist.

    The "under God" part of the pledge was added later, which prompted many of faith to cling to it.


    From the Huffington Post


    Francis Bellamy, a Christian socialist, wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in 1892 as a critique of the rampant greed, misguided materialism, and hyper-individualism of the Gilded Age. But you’d never know that by reading CNN contributor Bob Greene’s column earlier this week called “The Peculiar History of the Pledge of Allegiance.” He sort of air-brushed Bellamy’s politics out of that history. This is typical of how pundits and politicians often rewrite and distort history to reflect their own peculiar views.


    Greene’s essay focused on what was called the “Bellamy Salute,” an awkward gesture that for decades millions of schoolchildren and others used while reciting the Pledge. It involved stiffly extending the right arm upward and outward, fingers pointed ahead. By the 1930s, however, this gesture began to make many Americans uncomfortable — not because it was physically difficult but because it closely resembled the “Heil Hilter” salute that Americans began to see depicted in newsreels and still photos of Nazi rallies in Europe.


    So, as Greene recounts — citing the authoritative history To the Flag: The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Allegiance by Richard Ellis — on December 22, 1942, Congress amended the Flag Code, decreeing that the Pledge of Allegiance should “be rendered by standing with the right hand over the heart.” You could argue that it took Congress too long to make the change — almost a decade after Hitler came to power — but that’s how Americans brought down their right arms and put them over their hearts.


    The Pledge of Allegiance remains a hallowed part of American culture, still regularly recited at schools and at public events as a demonstration of patriotism and love of country. Last year, during his presidential campaign, Mitt Romney reminisced about reciting the Pledge in his fourth grade class. Then he used each line of the Pledge to make a point about his own views — about unifying the country, strengthening the military and the importance of keeping God in our public life — and to criticize President Obama for falling short in these areas.


    As the New York Times reported, Romney announced that “The promises that were made in that pledge are promises I plan on keeping if I am president, and I’ve kept them so far in my life.” He continued: “That pledge says ‘under God.’ I will not take ‘God’ out of the name of our platform. I will not take ‘God’ off our coins, and I will not take God out of my heart. We’re a nation bestowed by God.”


    Perhaps Romney didn’t know the history of the Pledge, but Greene had no excuse, since he’d obviously read Ellis’ book on the subject.


    Bellamy wrote the Pledge in 1892 to express his outrage at the nation’s widening economic divide. And, contrary to Romney, he did not include the phrase “under God” as part of the original Pledge.


    2013-12-24-FrancisBellamy.jpg Francis Bellamy




    Bellamy, who lived from 1855 to 1931, was a Baptist minister and a leading Christian socialist. He was ousted from his Boston church for his sermons depicting Jesus as a socialist and for his work among the poor in the Boston slums.


    It was the Gilded Age, an era of major political and social conflict. Reformers were outraged by the widening gap between rich and poor, and the behavior of corporate robber barons who were exploiting workers, gouging consumers, and corrupting politics with their money. Workers were organizing unions. Farmers joined forces in the Populist movement to leash the power of banks, railroads and utility companies. Progressive reformers fought for child labor laws, against slum housing and in favor of women’s suffrage. Radicals were gaining new converts.


    In foreign affairs, Americans were battling over the nation’s role in the world. America was beginning to act like an imperial power, justifying its expansion with a combination of white supremacy, manifest destiny and spreading democracy. At the time, nativist groups in the North and Midwest, as well as the South, were pushing for restrictions on immigrants — Catholics, Jews and Asians — deemed to be polluting Protestant America. In the South, the outcome of the Civil War still inflamed regional passions. Many Southerners, including Civil War veterans, swore allegiance to the Confederate flag.


    Bellamy (cousin of Edward Bellamy, author of two best-selling radical books, Looking Backward and Equality) believed that unbridled capitalism, materialism and individualism betrayed America’s promise. He hoped the Pledge of Allegiance would promote a different moral vision to counter the rampant greed he thought was undermining the nation.


    Bellamy initially intended to use the phrase “liberty, fraternity and equality,” but concluded that the radical rhetoric of the French Revolution wouldn’t sit well with many Americans. So he coined the phrase, “one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all,” intending it to express a more egalitarian vision of America, a secular patriotism to help unite a divided nation.


    Bellamy penned the Pledge of Allegiance for Youth’s Companion, a magazine for young people published in Boston with a circulation of about 500,000. A few years earlier, the magazine had sponsored a largely successful campaign to sell American flags to public schools. In 1891 the magazine hired Bellamy to organize a public relations campaign to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’s discovery of America by promoting use of the flag in public schools.


    Bellamy gained the support of the National Education Association, along with President Benjamin Harrison and Congress, for a national ritual observance in the schools, and he wrote the Pledge of Allegiance as part of the program’s flag salute ceremony.


    Bellamy thought such an event would be a powerful expression on behalf of free public education. Moreover, he wanted all the schoolchildren of America to recite the pledge at the same moment. He hoped the pledge would promote a moral vision to counter the individualism embodied in capitalism and expressed in the climate of the Gilded Age.


    In 1923, over the objections of the aging Bellamy, the National Flag Conference, led by the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the opening, “I pledge allegiance to my flag” to “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.” In 1954, at the height of the Cold War — when many political leaders believed that the nation was threatened by godless communism — the Knights of Columbia led a successful campaign to get Congress to add the words “under God.”


    America now confronts a new version of the Gilded Age, brought upon by Wall Street greed and corporate malfeasance. The gap between rich and poor is still widening. Americans are feeling more economically insecure than at any time since the Depression. They are upset by the unbridled selfishness and political influence-peddling demonstrated by banks, oil companies, drug companies, insurance companies, and other large corporations. They are angry at the growing power of American-based global firms who show no loyalty to their country, outsource jobs to low-wage countries, avoid paying taxes, and pollute the environment.


    Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart, America’s largest corporation, promoted the motto “Buy American.” But today the retail giant, now owned by his heirs, imports most of its merchandise from Asia, much of it made under dangerous sweatshop conditions. (Ironically, most American flags are made in China.)


    We are, once again, battling over immigration and who belongs in America. Some right-wing groups and talk-show pundits, calling themselves patriots, have even challenged the citizenship of our president.


    These trends have triggered a growing grassroots movement involving a diverse coalition of community groups, immigrant rights organizations, unions, consumer advocates, and human rights activists — demanding stronger regulations to protect consumers, workers, and the environment from abusive corporations and to promote living wages, fairer trade, and higher taxes on the very rich to pay for better schools, safer roads, and student loans.


    When we recite the Pledge of Allegiance, we should remind ourselves that it was written by a socialist who believed that “liberty and justice for all” meant more equality and a stronger democracy.
  3. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:032 edits
    @whodey

    Luckily the US has a Constitution to help protect against socialists that allowed school children not to have to say the socialist pledge.


    From Wiki:

    In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision. Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the 6 to 3 majority, went beyond simply ruling in the precise matter presented by the case to say that public school students are not required to say the Pledge on narrow grounds, and asserted that such ideological dogmata are antithetical to the principles of the country, concluding with:


    If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.[40]
  4. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:04
    @whodey said
    @Duchess64

    The Pledge of allegiance to be read in schools came from a socialist.

    From the Huffington Post


    Francis Bellamy, a Christian socialist, wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in 1892 as a critique of the rampant greed, misguided materialism, and hyper-individualism of the Gilded Age. But you’d never know that by reading CNN contributor Bob Greene’s column earlier ...[text shortened]... ialist who believed that “liberty and justice for all” meant more equality and a stronger democracy.
    Nerdwallet ??
    Nice cut/paste. 😆
  5. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:101 edit
    @mghrn55

    The national anthem began to be played at sporting events around the time of WW 1 in order to help get recruits to fight for the government.

    https://www.history.com/news/why-the-star-spangled-banner-is-played-at-sporting-events

    It is more or less the same reason school children are taught to recite the pledge.

    I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and need to die like they do in many Islamic countries.

    But I digress.
  6. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:131 edit
    Why would anyone swear a pledge to a government, unless you just want socialist drones, that is?

    No, the US was started by a bunch of back stabbing traitors. Guess what, you mistreat us and we slit your throat.

    Reminds me of a meme of Washington crossing the Delaware River with the caption:, "Americans, we will cross a river at night to kill you in your sleep on Christmas"
  7. Zugzwang
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    20 Feb '19 19:17
    @whodey said
    @mghrn55

    The national anthem began to be played at sporting events around the time of WW 1 in order to help get recruits to fight for the government.

    https://www.history.com/news/why-the-star-spangled-banner-is-played-at-sporting-events

    It is more or less the same reason school children are taught to recite the pledge.

    I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and need to die like they do in many Islamic countries.

    But I digress.
    The lying troll Whodey has a long record of lying to attack Islam and Muslims.

    "I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and need to die like
    they do in many Islamic countries."
    --Whodey

    Given that the hateful troll Whodey never has attended school in any 'Islamic country',
    can Whodey cite any evidence from a non-Islamophobic source to support his claim?

    When an extreme right-wing white American man murders Jews in a synagogue in
    Pittsburgh, Whodey prefers not to condemn his fellow supporter of Donald Trump.
  8. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 19:22
    @duchess64 said
    The lying troll Whodey has a long record of lying to attack Islam and Muslims.

    "I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and need to die like
    they do in many Islamic countries."
    --Whodey

    Given that the hateful troll Whodey never has attended school in any 'Islamic country',
    can Whodey cite any evidence from a non-Islamophobic source to su ...[text shortened]... s in a synagogue in
    Pittsburgh, Whodey prefers not to condemn his fellow supporter of Donald Trump.
    You must not get out much.

    From the right winged Nazi news source NBC news

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/saudi-school-textbooks-violence-anti-semitism-adl-report-says-n938316

    Textbooks for high school students in Saudi Arabia promote hatred against Jews, Christians, women, homosexual men and other Muslim sects despite repeated promises to return the country to a more moderate form of Islam, according to a report released Tuesday.

    The Anti-Defamation League highlighted that some textbooks include anti-Semitic stereotypes.







    Among the goals of Zionism is a “global Jewish government to control the entire world," one excerpt states.

    Another example reads: “The hour will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, so that the Muslims kill them, until the Jew hides behind rock and tree, so the rock or the tree says: ‘Oh Muslim, oh servant of God, this Jew is behind me, so kill him.’”

    A third passage suggests that “beating [women] is permitted when necessary.”








    Related







    News



    Jamal Khashoggi murder isn't mentioned in speech by King Salman

    Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam and for decades has exported a strict Wahhabi form of Sunni Islam that views Shiite Muslims as heretics.






    Intolerance in the kingdom came under particular scrutiny after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks when it emerged that 15 out of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.

    Senior clergy subsequently denounced militant Islamist groups like al Qaeda or Islamic State and the government has fired many religious leaders.

    However, hard-line views endure in some books taught in high schools.


    Image: Secondary school students sit for an exam in a government school in Riyadh

    Secondary school students sit for an exam at a government school in Riyadh.Fahad Shadeed / Reuters file

    While the report notes some improvements, “much of the incitement evident in today’s textbooks is still alarmingly similar to what was included in the kingdom’s curriculum around the time of the 9/11 attacks.”






    ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt called on U.S. officials to hold Saudi Arabia to a "higher standard."

    “The U.S. cannot look the other way while Saudi Arabia features anti-Semitic hate speech year after year in the educational material it gives to its children,” he said in a statement.

    The ADL also called for "greater scrutiny of the kingdom's textbooks by the American government."

    Many of the excerpts highlighted by the ADL are based on hadiths, or accounts of the sayings, actions or habits of the Prophet Muhammad that are used by preachers and jurists, as opposed to the Quran.








    Related







    World news



    Some Saudi royals turn against crown prince, Reuters sources say

    Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the country's de facto ruler, have been embraced by President Donald Trump as crucial for his administration's regional ambitions.






    In October 2017, Saudi Arabia's King Salman decreed the government would monitor interpretations of the Prophet Muhammad’s teachings to prevent them being used to justify violence or terrorism.

    And as part of a worldwide rebranding effort, Prince Mohammed promised to return the country to “moderate" Islam.





















    Trump on Saudi Arabia: 'I want to stick with an ally'
    Nov. 18, 2018 / 09:33










    In 2004, the State Department designated Saudi Arabia a “country of particular concern” under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations. It has done so annually since. The act imposes measures on countries for having "engaged in or tolerated egregious violations of religious freedom."




    Such a designation should trigger penalties, including economic sanctions, arms embargoes, and travel and visa restrictions. But the U.S. government had a waiver on penalties in place since 2006, allowing Washington to continue economic and security cooperation with Riyadh, according to Human Rights Watch.

    On May 29, U.S. Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom Sam Brownback called out Saudi Arabia for not recognizing the right of non-Muslims to “practice their religion in public" stating that it "imprisons, lashes, and fines individuals for apostasy, blasphemy, and insulting the state’s interpretation of Islam."




    Brinley Bruton from NBC, London, Britain.

    F. Brinley Bruton
    
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Feb '19 19:513 edits
    @Duchess64
    https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/saudi-arabias-curriculum-intolerance

    I guess this is just fake news also. Why don't you show me the Muslim schools in the middle east teaching Kumbaya and preaching world peace and the love of all mankind, Jews, Gays, infidels, Christians, Buddhists, atheists included?

    Tell me, how long would you stay alive if you went to Saudi Arabia and touted your atheism on a soap box there? Or if you started talking about how Jews were wonderful people and how Israel is the standard for international peace.
    ( unlike what you think about me, I KNOW Israel is an apartheid country, and I can love the people while disliking the government)

    About that kid arrested, it seems to me, despite what the police say, he was arrested at the base of it because he refused to say the Pledge. It sounds like they asked him to leave the classroom because he refused the pledge and it escalated from there.

    What about the idea the teacher just let him not say the pledge and go on without incidence?

    Seems like the kid was right, if it happened to be a white kid in the same position nothing further would have happened, the world would go on without a fuss.
  10. Joined
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    20 Feb '19 20:021 edit
    @sonhouse said
    @Duchess64
    https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/saudi-arabias-curriculum-intolerance

    I guess this is just fake news also. Why don't you show me the Muslim schools in the middle east teaching Kumbaya and preaching world peace and the love of all mankind, Jews, Gays, infidels, Christians, Buddhists, atheists included?

    Tell me, how long would you stay alive ...[text shortened]... kid in the same position nothing further would have happened, the world would go on without a fuss.
    Hello silence, my old friend
    I've come to talk with you again
    Because a vision softly creeping
    Left its seeds while I was sleeping
    And the vision that was planted in my brain
    Still remains
    Within the sound of silence
  11. Zugzwang
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    20 Feb '19 20:263 edits
    @sonhouse said
    @Duchess64
    https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/saudi-arabias-curriculum-intolerance

    I guess this is just fake news also. Why don't you show me the Muslim schools in the middle east teaching Kumbaya and preaching world peace and the love of all mankind, Jews, Gays, infidels, Christians, Buddhists, atheists included?

    Tell me, how long would you stay alive ...[text shortened]... kid in the same position nothing further would have happened, the world would go on without a fuss.
    Sonhouse hastens to support his fellow Islamophobe troll Whodey. whom
    he apparently believes is right about Islam and Muslims.

    "I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and
    NEED TO DIE [genocide] like they do in MANY Islamic countries."
    --Whodey

    Regarding Sonhouse's source, Freedom House, essentially a conduit for US government propaganda:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House
    "Critics have stated that the organization is biased towards US interests.
    The organization was 66% funded by grants from the U.S. government in 2006,
    a number which has increased to 86% in 2016."

    Would Sonhouse regard an organization that's 86% funded by Russia's government
    as a voice independent of Russia?

    It's well-known that Saudi Arabia's intolerant, including toward Muslims, such as the Shia.
    I did NOT notice Freedom House claiming that Saudi Arabia advocates a genocide of Jews.
    Sonhouse may be too stupid to comprehend the difference between intolerance and genocide.
    I would add that Saudi Arabia has killed many more Shia Muslims than it has Jews.

    I would also add that citing intolerance in ONE 'Islamic society' (Saudi Arabia) falls far
    short of proving that there's advocacy of genocide upon Jews in MANY 'Islamic societies'.

    I expect Sonhouse (like many of Donald Trump's supporters) to keep spewing hatred of Muslims.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Feb '19 20:27
    @whodey

    Surprised you didn't say 'sonhouse my old friend'...... Simon and Garfunkel did it pretty well the first time though.
    In 1967 I was particularly taken with Scarborough Fair, played to me inside our radar building when I worked on Santa Rosa island.
    I learned later Simon was taught that song by Martin Carthy, a great folksinger/guitarist and never given credit for that. Still, Simon's version was a great one.
  13. Zugzwang
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    20 Feb '19 20:291 edit
    @whodey said
    You must not get out much.

    From the right winged Nazi news source NBC news

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/saudi-school-textbooks-violence-anti-semitism-adl-report-says-n938316

    Textbooks for high school students in Saudi Arabia promote hatred against Jews, Christians, women, homosexual men and other Muslim sects despite repeated promises to return the country to a ...[text shortened]... terpretation of Islam."




    Brinley Bruton from NBC, London, Britain.

    F. Brinley Bruton
    
    Whodey prefers to lie about his original claim.

    "I reckon it beats the school teaching children that Jews are evil and
    NEED TO DIE [genocide] like they do in MANY Islamic countries."
    --Whodey

    Whodey may be too stupid to comprehend the difference between intolerance and genocide.
    Citing intolerance in ONE 'Islamic society' (Saudi Arabia) falls far short of proving
    that there's advocacy of genocide upon Jews in MANY 'Islamic societies'

    I expect that Whodey would not object to a Saudi genocide of Shia Muslims.
  14. Zugzwang
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    20 Feb '19 20:312 edits
    @sonhouse said
    @whodey

    Surprised you didn't say 'sonhouse my old friend'...... Simon and Garfunkel did it pretty well the first time though.
    In 1967 I was particularly taken with Scarborough Fair, played to me inside our radar building when I worked on Santa Rosa island.
    I learned later Simon was taught that song by Martin Carthy, a great folksinger/guitarist and never given credit for that. Still, Simon's version was a great one.
    Evidently, Sonhouse and Whodey are lying troll allies in demonizing Islam and Muslims.
    Such trolls love to claim that Saudi Arabia, an outlier among Islamic societies, must
    represent all Islamic societies.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Feb '19 20:312 edits
    @Duchess64
    But of course you think middle eastern Muslim schools just teach world peace and getting along with everyone and they have no greater ambitions like BECOMING the government like it was with Christianity a thousand years ago. No, they are just totally peace loving people and just LOVE jews and Hindu's and totally accept atheism and gays. Sure. And I have a GREAT bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

    BTW, I am not talking about ALL Muslim schools, there are clearly some teaching peace but you cannot deny there are MANY teaching hate.

    And Woodhead and I are almost NEVER on the same wavelength in spite of seeming to be on the same page here. I dislike almost EVERYTHING he posts but you cannot deny there are Muslim Schools preaching hatred especially against Jews.
    I want Islam to become civilized and forgo the idea of becoming the governing rulers forcing sharia law on everyone they control.
    That is the antithesis of freedom. But you don't seem to mind that kind of thing do you?
    I think you castigate people like me not because you love Islam but because you automatically take the other side when Americans say SOME Muslim schools teach hatred.
    One could make the argument you CONDONE the idea of Islam becoming dictators of the world, convert or you die, after you convert if you become Hindu, you die. Apostate rule. I guess there is nothing wrong with that in your POV.
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