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Debates Forum

  1. Behind the scenes
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    03 Feb '18 11:301 edit
    Forbes magazine is in no way a nest of loony Liberals, it's a publication that's respected by most in the Conservative sphere, yet even they think America spends too much on defense and too little on education. Hopefully other Conservatives will begin to consider the fact that education and science are not Liberal conspiracies.


    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/04/17/do-americans-care-more-about-war-than-education/#350773286aa1
  2. Unknown Territories
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    03 Feb '18 13:02
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Forbes magazine is in no way a nest of loony Liberals, it's a publication that's respected by most in the Conservative sphere, yet even they think America spends too much on defense and too little on education. Hopefully other Conservatives will begin to consider the fact that education and science are not Liberal conspiracies.


    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/04/17/do-americans-care-more-about-war-than-education/#350773286aa1
    Forbes sells magazines and their charter measures their success by volumes moved.
    If Forbes was a magazine which existed solely for the pursuit of truth, it would focus on productivity with the budget and not comparison to other budgets of grossly incompetent fiduciary handling.

    A metric of dollar/student is nearly non-dimemsional on account of its excessively narrow scope of consideration.

    We have an absurd view of education: focus on money spent instead of bang for the buck.
    The former is fixed without thought--- just give them more money--- while the true fix--- examine the curriculum and the results--- is widely ignored.

    Critical thinking is the goal of real education.
    We have nearly none, and it is a epic failure of our education system.
  3. Subscribermoonbus
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    03 Feb '18 13:13
    America's universities rank well on the world stage:

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#survey-answer

    I don't know about primary education in America these days, but i would agree that simply looking at budgets is not telling. The quality of primary education depends heavily on the quality of the teaching staff. Primary school aged children are not yet able to learn self-sufficiently, as university students are, so bonding to the teacher is an important part of the primary schooling process.
  4. Germany
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    03 Feb '18 14:26
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    America's universities rank well on the world stage:

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#survey-answer

    I don't know about primary education in America these days, but i would agree that simply looking at budgets is not telling. The quality of primary education depends heavily on the quality of the teaching ...[text shortened]... y students are, so bonding to the teacher is an important part of the primary schooling process.
    Those rankings don't tell you much about the quality of education the typical American receives, though.
  5. Joined
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    03 Feb '18 14:59
    Originally posted by @freakykbh
    Forbes sells magazines and their charter measures their success by volumes moved.
    If Forbes was a magazine which existed solely for the pursuit of truth, it would focus on productivity with the budget and not comparison to other budgets of grossly incompetent fiduciary handling.

    A metric of dollar/student is nearly non-dimemsional on account of its ex ...[text shortened]... goal of real education.
    We have nearly none, and it is a epic failure of our education system.
    The current conservative hold on education is against critical thinking. They far prefer rote memorization of facts and seem to only value STEM fields, Science, technology, engineering and medicine. Corporations that will control the public education system also control the testing industry. Just a bit of a conflict of interest. Just because test scores look great doesn't mean those tested have gotten an education that will allow them to be creative.
  6. Subscribermoonbus
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    03 Feb '18 15:161 edit
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Those rankings don't tell you much about the quality of education the typical American receives, though.
    I wouldn't know. I haven't lived there in 35 years, and my primary schooling there ended in 1970 and I was home-schooled for several years (due to illness, not on religious grounds). A lot may have changed since then. It is hard to see how the USA could have so many universities in the top ten of the world if its primary education system were a complete failure.
  7. Germany
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    03 Feb '18 16:00
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    I wouldn't know. I haven't lived there in 35 years, and my primary schooling there ended in 1970 and I was home-schooled for several years (due to illness, not on religious grounds). A lot may have changed since then. It is hard to see how the USA could have so many universities in the top ten of the world if its primary education system were a complete failure.
    A number of possible reasons come to mind:

    - These universities attract the top students; the relevant education level would be the education received by the elite, which in the U.S. is not that bad.
    - These universities' research staff is largely foreign. They just buy the best researchers from around the world as they are all well-funded universities.
    - The quality of primary and secondary education is simply not that important for training academics, since the pace of learning at universities is that much higher. For instance, the U.S. scores far below e.g. Singapore in the PISA rankings for high school students, so that typical freshmen students are significantly worse in terms of their knowledge. But by the time they graduate, the difference is mostly gone.
  8. Zugzwang
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    03 Feb '18 18:52
    Originally posted by @moonbus to KazetNagorra
    I wouldn't know. I haven't lived there in 35 years, and my primary schooling there ended in 1970 and I was home-schooled for several years (due to illness, not on religious grounds). A lot may have changed since then. It is hard to see how the USA could have so many universities in the top ten of the world if its primary education system were a complete failure.
    At the best universities in the USA, a significant proportion of the students (particularly
    in graduate school) and faculty received their earlier education outside the USA.
  9. Subscribermoonbus
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    03 Feb '18 20:54
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    A number of possible reasons come to mind:

    - These universities attract the top students; the relevant education level would be the education received by the elite, which in the U.S. is not that bad.
    - These universities' research staff is largely foreign. They just buy the best researchers from around the world as they are all well-funded universi ...[text shortened]... worse in terms of their knowledge. But by the time they graduate, the difference is mostly gone.
    Now that you mention it, I do recall that where I took my B.A. (University of California) half the faculty were Oxbridge educated.

    I don't think my primary school was particularly bad, but certainly not above mediocre either. Probably just average for the SF Bay Area.

    One does however hear of poor PISA results compared with some other countries. Are the USA PISA scores broken down by state, or is it a single score for the whole country? I imagine there might be significant differences, state by state.
  10. Unknown Territories
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    03 Feb '18 21:25
    Originally posted by @phranny
    The current conservative hold on education is against critical thinking. They far prefer rote memorization of facts and seem to only value STEM fields, Science, technology, engineering and medicine. Corporations that will control the public education system also control the testing industry. Just a bit of a conflict of interest. Just because test scores look great doesn't mean those tested have gotten an education that will allow them to be creative.
    Conservative hold?!?
    Not sure what isolated corner of what unregistered college you're viewing, but the educational system of the US is decidedly and emphatically not conservative by any stretch of definition.
    Not even close.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    04 Feb '18 08:53
    Originally posted by @freakykbh
    Conservative hold?!?
    Not sure what isolated corner of what unregistered college you're viewing, but the educational system of the US is decidedly and emphatically not conservative by [b]any
    stretch of definition.
    Not even close.[/b]
    Conservatives are directly responsible for the abortion called 'charter schools', which is destroying the public school system in America.
  12. Standard membershavixmir
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    04 Feb '18 10:37
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    America's universities rank well on the world stage:

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#survey-answer

    I don't know about primary education in America these days, but i would agree that simply looking at budgets is not telling. The quality of primary education depends heavily on the quality of the teaching ...[text shortened]... y students are, so bonding to the teacher is an important part of the primary schooling process.
    That is pretty bizarre.
    With one exception, that list says that the top 20 universities on every level you choose and every subject I chose (I tried 4) are in the US or UK!

    How is that even possible?
    I mean statistically?
  13. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Feb '18 17:30
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    That is pretty bizarre.
    With one exception, that list says that the top 20 universities on every level you choose and every subject I chose (I tried 4) are in the US or UK!

    How is that even possible?
    I mean statistically?
    Brain drain. Smart people leave their crappy countries and come to
    the Anglosphere every year in pursuit of a better life for themselves and their families.
  14. Joined
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    04 Feb '18 17:54
    I was addressing primary and secondary education. There is a huge conservative push to privatize public education for children under the age of 18. There is a a growing belief that parents understand education better than those who have conducted and analyze research data on how children learn and what constitutes a high quality curriculum. There is a disturbing belief among a large number that creationism should be part of the science curriculum. California and Texas purchase text books for all the districts in their states. As a result, the publishing companies cater to these two states and produce terrible textbooks in the area of science, history and social studies. History is whitewashed with little reference to areas where the United States did not shine. Also, little attention is paid to digging into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm guessing most in power would just as soon not have people to aware of what these documents actually say. Teacher education programs are terrible. High school teachers are selected more by what sport they can coach than how well they know the subjects they are to teach. The pay is dismal and there is little respect from parents, administrators or the general public so the field does not attract the brightest. .
  15. Joined
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    04 Feb '18 18:00
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    Now that you mention it, I do recall that where I took my B.A. (University of California) half the faculty were Oxbridge educated.

    I don't think my primary school was particularly bad, but certainly not above mediocre either. Probably just average for the SF Bay Area.

    One does however hear of poor PISA results compared with some other countries. Are t ...[text shortened]... e score for the whole country? I imagine there might be significant differences, state by state.
    Part of the score differences might be due to the fact that in the U.S. we have universal education and laws that prevent students with lower cognitive abilities from being cast aside. I believe, compared to Asian countries, the U.S. scores include students who might not have been included in testing in certain other countries. Perhaps more important is the fact that in the U.S. parents are more likely to encourage athletic ability and even pay for tutoring in sports rather than in academics. In Asian countries students who are doing well in a subject might seek tutoring to do even better. In the U.S. academic tutoring means you are failing academically.
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