Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 12:081 edit
    Chris Hayes and Bernie Sanders Town Hall meeting with trump supporters in Wisconsin
    YouTube

    Every time i watch Bernie Sanders speak i get depressed. Depressed for realizing just how badly he would have destroyed Trump if only the democrats had nominated him
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    14 Dec '16 12:11
  3. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    14 Dec '16 12:123 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E6QDGBrc8
    I don't do youtube links, no idea what that jumble of letters mean but makes more sense than you usually make, excellent post.
  4. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    14 Dec '16 13:42
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Chris Hayes and Bernie Sanders Town Hall meeting with trump supporters in Wisconsin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7tWq798OQI

    Every time i watch Bernie Sanders speak i get depressed. Depressed for realizing just how badly he would have destroyed Trump if only the democrats had nominated him
    What he's saying is really grossly inaccurate and, because Bernie is such a sincere guy, someone really ought to get him straight.

    This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong. They might not be able to afford to go to University of Florida, but there are thousands of colleges (including virtually all community colleges) whose tuition is covered entirely by Pell grants, which low income people have access to. There are also other options for education, including MOOCs, Straighter Line, credit bank colleges and the like that are very inexpensive. For expenses beyond Pell grants, low interest loans are available. Yes, they have to be repaid, but it's not like poor students don't have access to education.

    I really wish Sanders would stop framing the debate in this way that is really counterfactual.
  5. Standard membersh76
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    14 Dec '16 13:511 edit
    I also really wish Bernie would stop talking about the economy as though it were a zero sum game.

    Hey, I'm all for raising the higher marginal income tax rates because it's best for the country as a whole, but not because the rich have stolen it from the middle class. The rich haven't stolen anything and their getting rich doesn't necessarily mean someone else has to get poor. Bernie should argue that higher income tax is necessary for the good of the country and should lay off the moralizing. There's no moral compulsion for higher income taxes.
  6. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 14:11
    Originally posted by sh76
    What he's saying is really grossly inaccurate and, because Bernie is such a sincere guy, someone really ought to get him straight.

    This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong. They might not be able to afford to go to University of Florida, but there are thousands of colleges (including virtually all community colleges) whose tu ...[text shortened]...
    I really wish Sanders would stop framing the debate in this way that is really counterfactual.
    "This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong."
    ugh, pell grants again. first of all, 5000 dollars mean nothing. then not all qualify. if you do get that 5k you are restricted to a certain category of weaker colleges. every time i hear about pell grants from you is being reminded that you consider acceptable for poor young people to be told "this is what you're worth, you don't deserve to get into a good college, you don't deserve to get out of poverty"


    "There are also other options for education, including MOOCs, Straighter Line, credit bank colleges and the like that are very inexpensive."
    yes, i am sure banks give out loans to poor people with no jobs all the time.

    "For expenses beyond Pell grants, low interest loans are available. Yes, they have to be repaid, but it's not like poor students don't have access to education."
    so this is the best solution the richest country in the world can come up with? have young adults (barely adults) decide on taking on huge debt (if a bank actually approves the loans) in order to pursue an education that doesn't guarantee a job at the end?


    "I really wish Sanders would stop framing the debate in this way that is really counterfactual."
    i really wish you had a better grasp on the reality of the present instead of living with the impression everything is as it was (i assume in your case) 40 years ago.
  7. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    14 Dec '16 14:581 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong."
    ugh, pell grants again. first of all, 5000 dollars mean nothing. then not all qualify. if you do get that 5k you are restricted to a certain category of weaker colleges. every time i hear about pell grants from you is being reminded that you consider acceptable for poor young peop ...[text shortened]... tead of living with the impression everything is as it was (i assume in your case) 40 years ago.
    I guess you don't know what a credit bank college is. It has nothing to do with a bank. http://www.excelsior.edu/

    BTW, Pell is almost $6,000. That's plenty to pay tuition at many perfectly good colleges.

    You want to argue that poor people should be able to go to whatever school they like? You want to argue that nobody should ever have to take out an education loan? Go ahead. I disagree, but you can take that position. But then don't go and frame it as "poor people can't go to college." That's a dishonest position and it's inaccurate.

    As for your last remark, I've been in higher education for 15 years and I have a better grasp of how higher ed funding works than you ever will. I was born 40 years ago (as implied by my handle), so the idea that I am merely remembering things how they used to be 40 years ago is self-evidently ludicrous.
  8. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 15:161 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    What he's saying is really grossly inaccurate and, because Bernie is such a sincere guy, someone really ought to get him straight.

    This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong. They might not be able to afford to go to University of Florida, but there are thousands of colleges (including virtually all community colleges) whose tu ...[text shortened]...
    I really wish Sanders would stop framing the debate in this way that is really counterfactual.
    You assume he wants to be factual when, in fact, he just wants his party to have power.

    And how do they get power? They offer more "free" things with the promise of taxing the rich for them

    Of course, we all know how this works out in the end, massive deficits.

    Bernie appears to be a nice guy and sincere, but I think he is too busy enjoying his fabulous new house by the lake and sports car to be bothered with much else than empty demagoguery.
  9. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 15:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    I also really wish Bernie would stop talking about the economy as though it were a zero sum game.

    Hey, I'm all for raising the higher marginal income tax rates because it's best for the country as a whole, but not because the rich have stolen it from the middle class. The rich haven't stolen anything and their getting rich doesn't necessarily mean someone el ...[text shortened]... country and should lay off the moralizing. There's no moral compulsion for higher income taxes.
    "I also really wish Bernie would stop talking about the economy as though it were a zero sum game."
    grand statement. care to back it up? no? of course not.


    "The rich haven't stolen anything and their getting rich doesn't necessarily mean someone else has to get poor."
    no it doesn't and it's not the case in Norway or Sweden.
    the poor in the US got poorer because the rich wanted to get VERY rich.

    "Bernie should argue that higher income tax is necessary for the good of the country"
    which he said. countless times. you either don't listen or are lying. hope you're not


    "There's no moral compulsion for higher income taxes"
    yes it is. if education/healthcare/infrastructure is suffering, they must be improved mainly through the effort of those that won't be left starving if they pay 35% tax.
  10. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 15:291 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "I also really wish Bernie would stop talking about the economy as though it were a zero sum game."
    grand statement. care to back it up? no? of course not.


    "The rich haven't stolen anything and their getting rich doesn't necessarily mean someone else has to get poor."
    no it doesn't and it's not the case in Norway or Sweden.
    the poor in the US got ...[text shortened]... be improved mainly through the effort of those that won't be left starving if they pay 35% tax.
    There will always be the rich and poor. ALWAYS

    I think what Dims want are simply less rich people, all of whom run the government. It gives them a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

    Left winged ideology seems to include the thought that money corrupts society, so just make everyone righteous by making them poor.
  11. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 18:01
    Originally posted by sh76
    What he's saying is really grossly inaccurate and, because Bernie is such a sincere guy, someone really ought to get him straight.

    This idea that poor people can't get a college education is simply wrong. They might not be able to afford to go to University of Florida, but there are thousands of colleges (including virtually all community colleges) whose tu ...[text shortened]...
    I really wish Sanders would stop framing the debate in this way that is really counterfactual.
    Try and compete with a community college degree. I don't oppose them. It's good that we have them. But in many ways it just maintains the class structure.
  12. Joined
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    14 Dec '16 18:14
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Try and compete with a community college degree. I don't oppose them. It's good that we have them. But in many ways it just maintains the class structure.
    Just as long as rich fat cats like Obama and Hillary can send their children to Harvard to get the really good jobs and your children can't, all is well with the world. 😵
  13. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    14 Dec '16 20:48
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Try and compete with a community college degree. I don't oppose them. It's good that we have them. But in many ways it just maintains the class structure.
    Graduate from a CC and you're halfway towards a Bachelor's at a state college. A Bachelor's degree from a state university is attainable by anyone who really wants one.
  14. Germany
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    14 Dec '16 20:50
    Originally posted by sh76
    Graduate from a CC and you're halfway towards a Bachelor's at a state college. A Bachelor's degree from a state university is attainable by anyone who really wants one.
    Perhaps it would be better if those bachelor's degrees are obtained by the most qualified people rather than the people who "really want it" (or have money).
  15. Standard membersh76
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    14 Dec '16 21:56
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Perhaps it would be better if those bachelor's degrees are obtained by the most qualified people rather than the people who "really want it" (or have money).
    Why should more qualified people enjoy better lives than less qualified people? People may lack qualifications, intelligence, etc., through no fault of their own?
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