Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    11 Mar '17 21:121 edit
    https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/how-did-uk-end-up-voting-leave-european-union

    In the campaign for no in the next Scottish independence referendum, we can take so many lessons from the failure of the remain campaign.

    Brussels completely misjudged the level of frustration in the UK regarding their refusal to acknowledge the problems in the EU, and believed they could ignore David Cameron's pleas for reform and we would still vote in. This blase attitude must not be taken by unionists in the new referendum.

    Project fear clearly backfired, because people were insulted by David Cameron's attempts to scare them into staying, knowing that it would cost him his job as prime minister if he lost the referendum as opposed to weighing up the facts. Even though the facts for independence have grown weaker since the last referendum, and the case for project fear is stronger, we must run a positive campaign. Our union is built on so much more than facts.

    Lesson: ignoring problems doesn't make them go away, it just emboldens those who saw the problems in the first place.
  2. Joined
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    11 Mar '17 21:301 edit
    I know that on the morning of June 24th I woke up and was filled with nerves. We had actually voted to leave. I had been angry at Brussels since 2008 over so many issues, and this is what I had wanted.

    But, I still had the feeling that if the EU woke up because of the vote and tried a rapid reform program, that we could stay in our European family after all.

    If they acknowledged that they made a mistake by acknowledging the problem, and tried to fix it, I would have been more than happy to stay in.

    Instead, their retreat into their shells and vow to try to rule by fear by punishing a state for leaving cemented brexit sentiments. The fact that brussels wouldn't compromise even when facing losing a member state turned many reluctant brexiters into firm ones, including myself.

    The initial turmoil of the brexit result will stop other countries wanting out in the short term. But, as history shows, if they don't deal with the problems facing Europe that threat will fade into history and discontent will rise again, this time louder.

    Many brussels politicians thought that if they talked tough before article 50 was triggered people would change their minds, oblivious to the fact that they were just proving the negative stereotypes of inflexibility no matter the cost about them that caused us to leave, and that so many reluctant brexiters wanted them to change so badly so that we could stay after all.

    I think it is only sinking in now, with article 50 being triggered in the next few days, that project fear failed twice. The sense of the regret I and many others felt on June 24th could have been easily harnessed to keep us in if they had played their cards right. Instead that regret evaporated.

    Unionists, learn from this, and don't take beloved Scotland for granted. Have an open, quiet and positive discussion. Project fear will end in failure.
  3. Standard memberfinnegan
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    11 Mar '17 21:56
    What compromise were you hoping for from Brussels in order to persuade the UK to vote Remain?
  4. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 08:282 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    What compromise were you hoping for from Brussels in order to persuade the UK to vote Remain?
    To acknowledge that the EU in its current form is extremely flawed, and to make an attempt to fix it, otherwise they are sleepwalking towards another meltdown like 2010 euro crisis.

    There are other factors as well, such as mass immigration from eastern Europe.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Mar '17 14:37
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    To acknowledge that the EU in its current form is extremely flawed, and to make an attempt to fix it, otherwise they are sleepwalking towards another meltdown like 2010 euro crisis.

    There are other factors as well, such as mass immigration from eastern Europe.
    Why should the other European leaders seek to fix something the British do not want to fix - in fact, the British disrupt every effort to enhance the EU?

    The euro is something the UK was never part of.

    The financial crash of 2008, however, was something the UK and the UK financial sector have been central to, particularly in the British support for a string of tax havens in its Crown Dependencies. The UK has consistently refused to back European efforts to regulate the financial sector properly and with Brexit we move further towards simply being a tax haven.

    As for managing the UK economy without migration, the signs are not good. The sleepwalking is what the British are doing, very much the problem and refusing to be part of any solutions.

    Good luck too in Trump's America First America First trade deals - (there is a clue in that phrase if you can detect it - America First). Much better than those nasty democratically accountable institutions of the EU.
  6. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 15:111 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Why should the other European leaders seek to fix something the British do not want to fix - in fact, the British disrupt every effort to enhance the EU?

    The euro is something the UK was never part of.

    The financial crash of 2008, however, was something the UK and the UK financial sector have been central to, particularly in the British support for ...[text shortened]... merica First). Much better than those nasty democratically accountable institutions of the EU.
    What are these mystery solutions that brussels has offered?
  7. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 15:13
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Why should the other European leaders seek to fix something the British do not want to fix - in fact, the British disrupt every effort to enhance the EU?

    The euro is something the UK was never part of.

    The financial crash of 2008, however, was something the UK and the UK financial sector have been central to, particularly in the British support for ...[text shortened]... merica First). Much better than those nasty democratically accountable institutions of the EU.
    We disrupt the ridiculous ideas the arch federalist lunatics have that will rip the union into pieces.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Mar '17 15:41
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    We disrupt the ridiculous ideas the arch federalist lunatics have that will rip the union into pieces.
    Gibberish as expected #tika
  9. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 15:45
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Gibberish as expected #tika
    I'm sorry you don't speak english.
  10. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 15:46
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Gibberish as expected #tika
    Oh, and by the way, did you notice that Corbyn bungled things in scotland even more than usual?
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    12 Mar '17 18:11
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Oh, and by the way, did you notice that Corbyn bungled things in scotland even more than usual?
    He didn't bungle anything.
    He said he opposed Scottish independence (obviously I disagree with him), but that it shouldn't be up to London MP's to disallow referenda.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    Obviously the English are pooping bricks the Scots will rid themselves of their servile cloaks.
  12. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 18:18
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    He didn't bungle anything.
    He said he opposed Scottish independence (obviously I disagree with him), but that it shouldn't be up to London MP's to disallow referenda.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    Obviously the English are pooping bricks the Scots will rid themselves of their servile cloaks.
    The polls and the labour party's response show otherwise. If labour is to retain a shred of credibility as a unionist party they have to be unambiguous. Ambiguity is currently what is destroying the labour party.
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    12 Mar '17 18:20
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    He didn't bungle anything.
    He said he opposed Scottish independence (obviously I disagree with him), but that it shouldn't be up to London MP's to disallow referenda.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    Obviously the English are pooping bricks the Scots will rid themselves of their servile cloaks.
    So you support a nationalist party?
  14. Standard membershavixmir
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    12 Mar '17 18:20
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    The polls and the labour party's response show otherwise. If labour is to retain a shred of credibility as a unionist party they have to be unambiguous. Ambiguity is currently what is destroying the labour party.
    The English are moronic.
    They're the yanks of Europe.

    They don't like a commie and will do anything possible to pain him ib a negative light.
    And the council estate trash lap it up like lager and abusing their women.
  15. Joined
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    12 Mar '17 18:22
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    The English are moronic.
    They're the yanks of Europe.

    They don't like a commie and will do anything possible to pain him ib a negative light.
    And the council estate trash lap it up like lager and abusing their women.
    So you are calling the entire population of a nation moronic? Sounds like you are the moron here.
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