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  1. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 20:422 edits
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/22/canada-judge-sexual-assault-rape-case-critique

    "Canada Judge Critques System in Sexual Assault Case: 'No One Asks to be Raped'"
    --Ashifa Kassam (22 July 2016)

    "The myths of rape should be dispelled once and for all. It doesn't matter if
    the victim was drinking, out at night alone, sexually exploited, on a date
    with the perpetrator, or how the victim was dressed. No one asks to be raped."
    --Justice Marvin Zuker

    Many men here prefer to cling to their cherished myths about rape.

    "No other crime is looked upon with the degree of blameworthiness, suspicion
    and doubt as a rape victim. Victim blaming is unfortunately common and
    is one of the most significant barriers to justice and offender accountability."
    --Justice Marvin Zuker

    The behavior of many men here corroborates the judge's statement.

    "A 2012 study from the University of Ottawa suggested that just 0.3% of
    perpetrators of sexual assault in Canada are held accountable for their actions."
    --Ashifa Kassam

    Some sexist men would argue that the 0.3% must be innocent victims of feminist hysteria.
    The struggle continues against the sexist culture enabling sexual assault.

    "Rape it was. No confusion. No uncertainty to this court."
    --Justice Marvin Zuker (disbelieving the defendant's claim that the victim was
    eager, enthusiastic, and even aggressive in having sexual intercourse with him)

    "This process has been so brutal to me that I just cannot at this moment
    feel any sort of happiness. I will give you that the judgment is beautiful, and
    I will appreciate it one day, but not quite yet. I'm still not over the trauma of the system."
    --Mandi Gray (speaking after a man was convicted of sexually assaulting her)

    Seeing her rapist convicted tends to be a 'consolation prize' at best for any rape victim.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Jul '16 22:01
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/22/canada-judge-sexual-assault-rape-case-critique

    "Canada Judge Critques System in Sexual Assault Case: 'No One Asks to be Raped'"
    --Ashifa Kassam (22 July 2016)

    "The myths of rape should be dispelled once and for all. It doesn't matter if
    the victim was drinking, out at night alone, sexually exploited, o ...[text shortened]... r)

    Seeing her rapist convicted tends to be a 'consolation prize' at best for any rape victim.
    These criticisms might well be true in most cases but in this particular one where the victim texted the convicted rapist hours before the rape "“Come drink and then we can have hot sex,”" the Judge's statement that "Asking her to remember the details is ridiculous.” seem out of bounds. What defense could Mr. Ururyar have offered if the Judge's words were taken to their ultimate conclusion? Surely not every claim of rape is true and so defendants must have some opportunity to present relevant evidence indicating consent in such "date rape" cases.

    I await the usual, predictable charge of "rape apologist".
  3. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 22:324 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    These criticisms might well be true in most cases but in this particular one where the victim texted the convicted rapist hours before the rape "“Come drink and then we can have hot sex,”" the Judge's statement that "Asking her to remember the details is ridiculous.” seem out of bounds. What defense could Mr. Ururyar have offered if the Judge's words wer ...[text shortened]... consent in such "date rape" cases.

    I await the usual, predictable charge of "rape apologist".
    No1Marauder is a defense lawyer who consistently has supported men accused of rape
    while tending to dismiss or put down women who have reported being raped.

    I note that No1Marauder recently insisted that the judge, having been present at every
    moment of the trial, should be most qualified to make decisions about the case or defendant.
    Did No1Marauder attend this trial in Canada? Shouldn't No1Marauder contact the
    convicted defendant's lawyer and offer to help one prepare an appeal?

    So it seems that whenever a judge does something that pleases No1Marauder, such
    as give a very lenient sentence to an affluent white man convicted of sexual assault
    (in a famous recent case at Stanford University), No1Marauder passionately supports him.
    But when a judge does something that displeases No1Marauder, he sings a different tune.
    And No1Marauder seems upset that not every other man agrees with his opinions about rape.

    Justice Marvin Zuker is the co-author of a book _The Law is Not For Women_, giving legal advice to women.

    No1Marauder's lying again when he claims that I have explicitly called him a 'rape apologist'.
    For many good reasons, I regard No1Marauder as a pathological liar and morally reprehensible.
    And I expect that many people, including some men (even including some lawyers), who
    work on behalf of victims of rape or sexual assault would regard No1Marauder as their enemy.

    By the way, I have heard that Roger Ailes may need legal help about his sexual harassment lawsuit.
    In that case, No1Marauder could enjoy opportunities to sell sexist myths to a jury.
  4. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 22:481 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/22/canada-judge-sexual-assault-rape-case-critique

    "Canada Judge Critques System in Sexual Assault Case: 'No One Asks to be Raped'"
    --Ashifa Kassam (22 July 2016)

    "The myths of rape should be dispelled once and for all. It doesn't matter if
    the victim was drinking, out at night alone, sexually exploited, o ...[text shortened]... r)

    Seeing her rapist convicted tends to be a 'consolation prize' at best for any rape victim.
    Apparently, some men here believe (or at least wish to believe) that Mustafa Ururyar
    (note the 'foreign' name) must have been telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
    but the truth when he insisted that Mandi Gray 'had been sexually aggressive the entire
    night and had initiated sex even after he tried to break up with her.'

    So would these men like to step forward and identify themselves now?

    If it were true that Mandi Gray 'initiated' sexual intercourse with Mustafa Uruyar *against his will*,
    then why didn't he hasten to complain to the police that *she allegedly had raped him*?
    Which men here really believe that Mandi Gray forced herself upon Mustafa Uruyar?
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Jul '16 23:02
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Apparently, some men here believe (or at least wish to believe) that Mustafa Ururyar
    (note the 'foreign' name) must have been telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
    but the truth when he insisted that Mandi Gray 'had been sexually aggressive the entire
    night and had initiated sex even after he tried to break up with her.'

    So would these men ...[text shortened]... d raped him*?
    Which men here really believe that Mandi Gray forced herself upon Mustafa Uruyar?
    What makes you think that some men here believe such a thing? No one has said it, have they?
  6. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 23:06
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    ..
    "This process has been so brutal to me that I just cannot at this moment
    feel any sort of happiness. I will give you that the judgment is beautiful, and
    I will appreciate it one day, but not quite yet. I'm still not over the trauma of the system."
    --Mandi Gray (speaking after a man was convicted of sexually assaulting her)

    Seeing her rapist convicted tends to be a 'consolation prize' at best for any rape victim.
    According to the 'Toronto Star', Mandi Gray, a PhD student (she's changed the subject
    of her dissertation to sexual assault), is not 'the stereotypical broken woman'.

    "She came to court in a cute skirt and blouse, often revealing an arm of tattoos.
    She was bold, proud and angry. She repealed the publication ban on her name and
    sent press releases upon coming court dates. She hired a lawyer to advise her."
    --Catherine Porter (21 July 2016)

    So Mandi Gray seems like a woman whom many sexist men here would fear and hate.
  7. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 23:161 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    What makes you think that some men here believe such a thing? No one has said it, have they?
    I already got two 'thumbs down' for an original post consisting almost completely of quotations from a 'Guardian' article.
    So I suspect that some readers object to the outcome of the trial or to what the judge said.

    Now I would like to ask why No1Marauder apparently regards some writers here as racists
    when they have *not* said that they are racists. Given that every writer here denies
    being a racist, shouldn't that mean that racism cannot exist in this forum? (sarcasm)
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Jul '16 23:40
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I already got two 'thumbs down' for an original post consisting almost completely of quotations from a 'Guardian' article.
    So I suspect that some readers object to the outcome of the trial or to what the judge said.

    Now I would like to ask why No1Marauder apparently regards some writers here as racists
    when they have *not* said that they are racists. ...[text shortened]... re denies
    being a racist, shouldn't that mean that racism cannot exist in this forum? (sarcasm)
    One can judge posters by the content of their posts regardless of their claims of non-whatever. However, no poster besides myself has even commented on the case, so your assertion is without foundation.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Jul '16 23:491 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    No1Marauder is a defense lawyer who consistently has supported men accused of rape
    while tending to dismiss or put down women who have reported being raped.

    I note that No1Marauder recently insisted that the judge, having been present at every
    moment of the trial, should be most qualified to make decisions about the case or defendant.
    Did No1Marauder ...[text shortened]... nt lawsuit.
    In that case, No1Marauder could enjoy opportunities to sell sexist myths to a jury.
    The first sentence is, of course, an untruth and remains an untruth no matter how many times you repeat it. One has only to look at the DSK case threads here from several years ago to show the falsity of such a claim. In fact, when you decide to attack QuackQuack you often point out to my disgust with his stated claim that he would not vote to convict in a rape case absent evidence of physical resistance (which has not been law for many decades). It seems failure to agree 100% with any of your positions is sufficient for you to let loose with these ridiculous character assassinations.

    I did not criticize the Judge's factual findings (I don't know if the case was tried by a jury or not); as you point out I have said in the past I do not feel comfortable with second guessing factual determinations made by those assigned to do so at trials where they are presented with evidence that those on the internet are not. My criticism of the Judge related to his complaining about evidentiary rules that allow certain types of proof deemed relevant to the issue of consent. I feel sufficiently well-qualified to comment on that statement.

    You failed to answer my question: what evidence do you think the defense should be allowed to present in a rape case to support a defense of consent?
  10. Zugzwang
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    22 Jul '16 23:512 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    One can judge posters by the content of their posts regardless of their claims of non-whatever.
    However, no poster besides myself has even commented on the case, so your assertion is without foundation.
    No1Marauder keeps being disingenuous. If No1Marauder was a poker player, would he be this bad at 'tells'?

    One may draw inferences in the absence of an explicit utterance. ('Thumbs down' indicate disapproval.)
    Indeed, men who are accused of rape often like to claim that women had indicated their consent
    through other means besides saying "Yes, you may have sexual intercourse with me now."

    Does No1Marauder believe that Mustafa Uruyar's an innocent man who was framed by a lying woman?
    Does No1Marauder believe the story reportedly given by his defense lawyer?
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Jul '16 23:592 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    No1Marauder keeps being disingenuous. If No1Marauder was a poker player, would he be this bad at 'tells'?

    One may draw inferences in the absence of an explicit utterance. ('Thumbs down' indicate disapproval.)
    Indeed, men who are accused of rape often like to claim that women had indicated their consent
    through other means besides saying "Yes, you may have sexual intercourse with me now."
    I assure you you wouldn't want to play poker with me.

    "Thumbs down" are pretty ambiguous; maybe people just don't like you. At any rate, it hardly shows that there are men or women here who accept the defendant's story here hook, line and sinker.

    Women actually very often indicate consent other than by saying "Yes, you may have sexual intercourse with me now." Where consent is raised as a defense, the burden is on the prosecution to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt.https://blog.simplejustice.us/2014/10/31/proof-of-consent-in-rape-cannot-be-shifted-to-the-accused/

    To your edit: I don't believe or disbelieve either as I lack facts to evaluate such claims.
  12. Zugzwang
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    23 Jul '16 00:124 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The first sentence is, of course, an untruth and remains an untruth no matter how many times you repeat it. One has only to look at the DSK case threads here from several years ago to show the falsity of such a claim. In fact, when you decide to attack QuackQuack you often point out to my disgust with his stated claim that he would not vote to convict in ...[text shortened]... u think the defense should be allowed to present in a rape case to support a defense of consent?
    No1Marauder again dishonestly distorts what I wrote.
    First of all, 'consistently' is *not* a synonym for 'invariably'. I expect that even No1Marauder
    would *not* support a man who was accused, for instance of raping his wife or daughter.
    And I expect that No1Marauder would concede that some men are justly convicted of rape.
    I note that No1Marauder has to reach as far back as the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn,
    who was accused of sexual assault in 2011, to claim an example of not supporting a defendant.

    Based upon disputes in at least several more recent cases, it's accurate for me to say
    that No1Marauder *consistently* (this is a general claim, not necessarily a 100% one)
    supports men accused of rape or sexual assault and usually attempts, as a defense
    lawyer would, to explore any legal loophole that could aid their defense. Given the
    nature of the justice system, I don't blame No1Marauder for doing this, but my point is
    that No1Marauder's *far from being a disinterested observer of the justice system*.
    As a player within it, No1Marauder has a vested interest in what favors the defense.

    Can No1Marauder cite any facts about the judge supposedly improperly disallowing
    evidence of a text message from the victim to the defendant? As far as I can tell, that
    evidence was presented at trial. If so, No1Marauder's arguing against a 'strawman'.

    "*The court heard* that, in January of last year, after the pair had been casually dating for
    a few weeks, Gray had texted Ururyar while she was out drinking with some friends.
    'Come drink and then we can have hot sex', she wrote."
    --from the 'Guardian' article cited in my original post

    So it seems clear that the judge allowed this text message to be admitted into evidence.
    In that case, why is No1Marauder objecting?

    I would add that this text message means only that Mandi Gray expressed a willingness
    to have sex at the time that she sent it. She had the right to change her mind, and she
    claims to have done so after she was treated abusively by the defendant.

    And let's consider again one of No1Marauder's tirelessly reiterated lies about me, namely,
    that I must personally attack everyone with whom I disagree. I *already* have refuted
    this lie many times, but the pathological liar No1Marauder keeps spewing it.
    For instance, Sasquatch672, a right-wing white American man, wrote that he nearly
    always disagrees with me but I never have personally attacked him.
  13. Zugzwang
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    23 Jul '16 00:18
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I assure you you wouldn't want to play poker with me.

    "Thumbs down" are pretty ambiguous; maybe people just don't like you. At any rate, it hardly shows that there are men or women here who accept the defendant's story here hook, line and sinker.

    Women actually very often indicate consent other than by saying "Yes, you may have sexual intercourse w ...[text shortened]... /

    To your edit: I don't believe or disbelieve either as I lack facts to evaluate such claims.
    I much prefer chess to poker on account of the lesser element of chance.

    Again, I have *not* claimed that I *know* that some readers "accept the defendant's story
    here hook, line, and sinker". That's why I *asked* anyone who believes it to step forward.

    I note that this forum has some writer(s) who believe that the earth is flat or in various
    bizarre conspiracy theories, so I hardly would be shocked if some readers *did* believe
    the defendant's story 'hook, line, and sinker'.
  14. Zugzwang
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    23 Jul '16 00:37
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    These criticisms might well be true in most cases but in this particular one where the victim texted the convicted rapist hours before the rape "“Come drink and then we can have hot sex,”" the Judge's statement that "Asking her to remember the details is ridiculous.” seem out of bounds. What defense could Mr. Ururyar have offered if the Judge's words wer ...[text shortened]... consent in such "date rape" cases.

    I await the usual, predictable charge of "rape apologist".
    "...defendants must have some opportunity to present relevant evidence indicating consent in such 'date rape' cases."
    --No1Marauder

    "*The court heard* that in January of last year, after the pair had been casually dating for
    a few weeks, Gray had texted Ururyar while she was out drinking with some friends.
    'Come drink and then we can have hot sex', she wrote."
    --from the 'Guardian' article in my original post

    'The court heard' seems to mean that this text message was presented as evidence at trial.
    So why is No1Marauder complaining about the defendant supposedly being wrongly
    denied "some opportunity to present relevant evidence indicating consent"?
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    23 Jul '16 00:421 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...defendants must have some opportunity to present relevant evidence indicating consent in such 'date rape' cases."
    --No1Marauder

    "*The court heard* that in January of last year, after the pair had been casually dating for
    a few weeks, Gray had texted Ururyar while she was out drinking with some friends.
    'Come drink and then we can have hot sex', ...[text shortened]... sedly being wrongly
    denied "some opportunity to present relevant evidence indicating consent"?
    Jesus, why don't you read what I wrote instead of just thinking what I probably WOULD have wrote IF I had the attitudes you falsely claim I do?

    I wrote:

    the Judge's statement that "Asking her to remember the details is ridiculous.” seem out of bounds

    That's all. I stand by that opinion, not the ones you have created for me.
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