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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    21 Apr '18 16:561 edit
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/opinion/childbirth-black-women-mortality.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

    "Wealthier, more educated black women in New York City are also dying or almost dying in childbirth at a far higher rate than their white neighbors. One city study found that black college-educated women were more than twice as likely to experience severe complications from childbirth as white women without a high school diploma....Latinas and Asian women also experience higher rates of severe and potentially life-threatening complications. But some researchers and city officials believe that the higher rates of death and complications among black women are caused only partly by longstanding disparities in poverty, obesity and lack of access to top-rate health care. The dangers black women face in pregnancy and childbirth, they say, are compounded by racism, unconscious biases in health care and the long-term anxieties, regardless of economic status, that come with being an African-American woman."
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db279.htm
    However, based on the CDC (Center for Disease Control) "From 2005 through 2014, declines in infant mortality rates were observed for all race and Hispanic-origin subgroups except among American Indian or Alaska Native persons. The largest declines were among infants of Asian or Pacific Islander (21😵 and non-Hispanic black (20😵 women."
    Asian or Pacific islander women actually have a higher rate of infant mortality than African Americans. the NYT's article implies that the rates are higher for blacks! is this racist reporting?
    Duchess64 managed to blast me, as usual, in response to an earlier comment I made on this issue as reported in the NYT's. I patiently await another searing attack.
    Note: I tried to use the percent symbol and this system inserted a crazy imogi.
  2. Standard membershavixmir
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    21 Apr '18 19:05
    Originally posted by @phranny
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/opinion/childbirth-black-women-mortality.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

    "Wealthier, more educated black women in New York City are also dying or almost dying in childbirth at a far higher rate ...[text shortened]... searing attack.
    Note: I tried to use the percent symbol and this system inserted a crazy imogi.
    Why are they dying more frequently?
  3. Joined
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    21 Apr '18 19:11
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Why are they dying more frequently?
    Obamaca....er.....um.....Trump.
  4. Zugzwang
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    21 Apr '18 19:174 edits
    Originally posted by @phranny
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/opinion/childbirth-black-women-mortality.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

    "Wealthier, more educated black women in New York City are also dying or almost dying in childbirth at a far higher rate ...[text shortened]... searing attack.
    Note: I tried to use the percent symbol and this system inserted a crazy imogi.
    First of all, I probably would NOT have replied to Phranny's post except that she made
    the point of mentioning me by name, spewing some misleading comments about me,
    and daring me to criticize her. So the troll Phranny baited me on purpose, and I bit.

    "Asian or Pacific islander women actually have a higher rate of infant mortality than African Americans.
    the NYT's article implies that the rates are higher for blacks! is this racist reporting?"
    --Phranny

    Statistics are not racist. Interpretation of statistics may or may not be racist.
    (One case is how to interpret the lower average IQ scores of black people in the USA.)

    On a more general note, the 'model minority' stereotype of Asian Americans is often misleading or inaccurate.
    Asian and Pacific Islander communities are very diverse and some of them have serious socioeconomic troubles.
    All of them are afflicted by racism, though not necessarily in exactly the same ways as African Americans are.

    "Duchess64 managed to blast me, as usual, in response to an earlier comment I made
    on this issue as reported in the NYT's."
    --Phranny

    The last post that I addressed to the troll Phranny was in "Alt.America's White Terrorism".
    "And now I await some trollish attack from Duchess64."
    --Phranny
    "Sorry to disappoint her, but I don't have major objections to Phranny's post."
    --Duchess64

    If I criticized her in another post (which I don't recall now), it was based upon her errors.

    "I patiently await another searing attack."
    --Phranny

    Phranny becomes extremely upset whenever I point out her blatant falsehoods, such as
    her absurd claim that Sweden has no military. The arrogant troll Phranny likes to act as
    though her usual nonsense should be above criticism, at least by me.

    For the record, the hypocritical troll Phranny (a supporter of Israel) has loudly accused me of hating all Jews.
    And the troll Phranny has the chutzpah to whine about me allegedly unfairly criticizing her!
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    21 Apr '18 20:081 edit
    Originally posted by @phranny
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/opinion/childbirth-black-women-mortality.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

    "Wealthier, more educated black women in New York City are also dying or almost dying in childbirth at a far higher rate ...[text shortened]... searing attack.
    Note: I tried to use the percent symbol and this system inserted a crazy imogi.
    Phranny: Asian or Pacific islander women actually have a higher rate of infant mortality than African Americans.

    Umm, no they don't. Figure 1 from your CDC link clearly shows that group has an infant mortality rate of about 1/4 of "Non-Hispanic Blacks" and lower than any other group in the figure.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    21 Apr '18 21:00
    Originally posted by @phranny
    Note: I tried to use the percent symbol and this system inserted a crazy imogi.
    To avoid this, I always include a space before the final parenthesis when using special characters like % or " .
  7. Joined
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    22 Apr '18 20:061 edit
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Why are they dying more frequently?
    Best guess is stress. When African women immigrate to the U.S., they do not initially experience these high rates. Nor do black women in other countries. Being black in the U.S. is not easy. While Asians and Latinos also experience discrimination in the U.S., I am guessing that both Native Americans and African Americans experience greater levels. In addition, their history in this country is one of extreme trauma and genocide.
  8. Joined
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    22 Apr '18 20:08
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    First of all, I probably would NOT have replied to Phranny's post except that she made
    the point of mentioning me by name, spewing some misleading comments about me,
    and daring me to criticize her. So the troll Phranny baited me on purpose, and I bit.

    "Asian or Pacific islander women actually have a higher rate of infant mortality than African Amer ...[text shortened]... s.
    And the troll Phranny has the chutzpah to whine about me allegedly unfairly criticizing her!
    I never accused you of hating all Jews. One more outlandish lie.
  9. Zugzwang
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    22 Apr '18 20:12
    Originally posted by @no1marauder to Phranny
    Phranny: Asian or Pacific islander women actually have a higher rate of infant mortality than African Americans.

    Umm, no they don't. Figure 1 from your CDC link clearly shows that group has an infant mortality rate of about 1/4 of "Non-Hispanic Blacks" and lower than any other group in the figure.
    No1Marauder presumably will wait in vain for the arrogant Phranny to concede her
    blatant error, which seems based upon her poor reading comprehension.

    Given the unprovoked insults that she's been hurling at me in this and other recent threads,
    Phranny's main interest seems to be trolling hard for a 'flame war' against me.
  10. Zugzwang
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    22 Apr '18 20:132 edits
    Originally posted by @phranny
    I never accused you of hating all Jews. One more outlandish lie.
    FALSE. The lying troll Phranny's shamelessly lying again.

    Phranny, a Jewish supporter of Israel, has claimed that my criticisms (which she hates) of Israel
    and Zionism are motivated only or at least chiefly by anti-Semitism. In response, I earlier
    cited the fact that some Jews concur with about all my criticisms of Israel and Zionism.

    It's a common tactic for supporters of Israel (like Phranny) to accuse critics of Israel of anti-Semitism
    or hating all Jews. Then they may prefer to lie about it when their tactic does not seem to be succeeding.
  11. Zugzwang
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    22 Apr '18 20:303 edits
    Originally posted by @phranny to Shavixmir
    Best guess is stress. When African women immigrate to the U.S., they do not initially experience these high rates. Nor do black women in other countries. Being black in the U.S. is not easy. While Asians and Latinos also experience discrimination in the U.S., I am guessing that both Native Americans and African Americans experience greater levels. In addition, their history in this country is one of extreme trauma and genocide.
    Phranny's post is full of guesses (her own word) and not based upon objective evidence..
    I would submit that reality may be more complex than she 'guesses'.

    If some communities are supposedly more 'stressed', then would they be more likely to
    turn to or receive support from mental health services?

    https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2015/a-new-look-at-racial-ethnic-differences-in-mental-health-service-use-among-adults.shtml

    "A New Look at Racial/Ethnic Differences in Mental Health Service Use Among Adults"

    "The adults most likely to use mental health services in the past year (17.1% ) were in the
    group reporting two or more races. This group was followed by white adults (16.6% ),
    American Indian or Alaska Native adults (15.6% ), followed by black (8.6), Hispanic (7.3)
    and Asian (4.9% ) adults. "

    So whites are more likely than blacks, Latinos, and Asians to use mental health services.
    Is that because whites have reasons to be more 'stressed' than blacks, Latinos, and Asians?
    Or because whites are more likely to be able to afford mental health services or that such
    services (which usually are provided by whites) tend to more responsive to their needs?

    I would add that a major reason for the low usage of mental health services among Asians
    is a traditional cultural factor--the stigmatization of turning for help to mental health services.
    It does not mean that Asians don't have mental health issues; it means that they are more
    likely to suffer in silence rather than 'shame their families' by seeking mental health services.
  12. Standard memberHandyAndy
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    22 Apr '18 21:13
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    FALSE. The lying troll Phranny's shamelessly lying again.

    Phranny, a Jewish supporter of Israel, has claimed that my criticisms (which she hates) of Israel
    and Zionism are motivated only or at least chiefly by anti-Semitism. In response, I earlier
    cited the fact that some Jews concur with about all my criticisms of Israel and Zionism.

    It's a c ...[text shortened]... ll Jews. Then they may prefer to lie about it when their tactic does not seem to be succeeding.
    Does Duchess64 use narcotics?
  13. Joined
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    23 Apr '18 12:58
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Phranny's post is full of guesses (her own word) and not based upon objective evidence..
    I would submit that reality may be more complex than she 'guesses'.

    If some communities are supposedly more 'stressed', then would they be more likely to
    turn to or receive support from mental health services?

    https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2015/a- ...[text shortened]... ikely to suffer in silence rather than 'shame their families' by seeking mental health services.
    Native Americans and those blacks who did not voluntarily immigrate to the United States (some have immigrated here post slavery era) are in a different category from non-whites who voluntarily immigrated to the U.S. Native Americans and blacks, whose ancestors were brought to the U.S. in chains, were not voluntary immigrants. The trauma of genocide and the desecration and stripping away of their culture has a depth of damage not experienced by other non whites who came to the U.S. voluntarily and experience racism. These horrible historical events are recent and current history being played out via institutionalized racism that exists today. It is not past history. Mental health services do not resolve all mental health issues. Accessing mental health services is costly. I doubt there are large numbers of African American mental health providers who would have, in addition to formal training, an experience based understanding of the stresses that are unique to black Americans. On another note, Duchess often cites her direct anecdotal experiences with individuals and Wiki articles to support her views. Indeed, all of us are prone to pick articles and experiences that support our individual biases. And yes, we all have biases whether we are aware of them or not. If someone's biases match your own, they are in "the right". If not they are immoral, illiterate individuals who are directly responsible for the all ills on Earth.
  14. Zugzwang
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    23 Apr '18 20:391 edit
    Originally posted by @phranny
    Native Americans and those blacks who did not voluntarily immigrate to the United States (some have immigrated here post slavery era) are in a different category from non-whites who voluntarily immigrated to the U.S. Native Americans and blacks, whose ancestors were brought to the U.S. in chains, were not voluntary immigrants. The trauma of genocide and the ...[text shortened]... they are immoral, illiterate individuals who are directly responsible for the all ills on Earth.
    Phranny's post is full of her characteristic muddled 'thinking' and ideological dogma.

    Regarding her claim that native Americans ('Indians' ) and enslaved blacks are the only
    non-voluntary immigrants to the USA, 'voluntary immigration' is less clear-cut than she believes.
    In reality, many 'voluntary immigrants' fled their homelands on account of persecution.
    A friend of mine told me that his Jewish parents emigrated from Germany to the USA in
    the late 1930s only because the Nazis were in power. They still regarded themselves as
    culturally German and would have gladly remained if they had felt safe in their Heimat.
    His parents eventually became Americans, but not by their original choice.

    While the genocide of some native American tribes and the enslavement of blacks were
    great tragedies of US history, these events have been over for several generations.
    (Slavery ended more than 150 years ago.) When considering 'stress' as risk factors today,
    one should examine more proximate causes rather than desperately reach (like Phranny)
    toward the traumas of distant ancestors as the most likely causes of such 'stress'.

    I would add that many immigrants in the USA have experienced great trauma (such as in wars)
    that are much closer to our time than 150 years ago. Why should not survivors of the Cambodian
    genocide of the 1970s be more 'stressed' than the distant descendants of black slaves?
  15. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    24 Apr '18 01:37
    I believe that there's a better than 50% chance that Duchess64 suffers from an undiagnosed mental health issue. Having read several of her frequently incoherent, inconsistent posts...it seems clear she's suffering.
    To be fair, I don't believe she battles delusions of grandeur...I think she's already surrendered.
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