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  1. Standard membershavixmir
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    01 Feb '18 13:441 edit
    Well, who says what?
    If you ask me, the Polish State can’t have been responsible. It was run by the Nazis.

    But why on Earth pass a bill about it?

    One would think the Polish people / politicians are being very guarded about their image of innocense.

    Makes one wonder if they’re hiding something...
    Perhaps some deep felt sentiments?
    Sort of like: well, if the State can be held responsible... and the State’s representative of the people...

    I dunno. I’m sure anti-Jewish sentiment wasn’t rife in Poland in the 30’s and 40’s.
    I’m positive they didn’t know what that billowing smoke was from the chimney next door.
    I’m certain Jews could safely be hidden by farmers without worrying about being sold out to the nazis.

    Yeah. Move along folks, nothing to see here. It’s all perfectly kosher.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42898882

    Poland's Senate has approved a controversial bill making it illegal to accuse the Polish nation or state of complicity in the Nazi Holocaust.
    The bill amendment, which sets fines or a maximum three-year jail term as punishment.
  2. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    01 Feb '18 14:44
    I can understand Poles being upset about being accused of being complicit in the Holocaust, when Poland was invaded, occupied and savagely raped and tortured by the Nazis.

    Still, there's a reason French and Dutch and Italian Jews were shipped to Poland to be gassed rather than the other way around.

    And the record of Polish persecution of Jews before the war and pogroms after it is very real.
  3. Behind the scenes
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    01 Feb '18 15:192 edits
    Originally posted by @sh76
    I can understand Poles being upset about being accused of being complicit in the Holocaust, when Poland was invaded, occupied and savagely raped and tortured by the Nazis.

    Still, there's a reason French and Dutch and Italian Jews were shipped to Poland to be gassed rather than the other way around.

    And the record of Polish persecution of Jews before the war and pogroms after it is very real.
    JMHO - The Polish government would have been wise to leave the situation alone. They have better things to do than to pass laws that dredge up memories of WW2. After 70+ years the scars from that war have only recently begun to heal.
  4. Joined
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    01 Feb '18 16:51
    Originally posted by @sh76
    I can understand Poles being upset about being accused of being complicit in the Holocaust, when Poland was invaded, occupied and savagely raped and tortured by the Nazis.

    Still, there's a reason French and Dutch and Italian Jews were shipped to Poland to be gassed rather than the other way around.

    And the record of Polish persecution of Jews before the war and pogroms after it is very real.
    I learned that Jews were welcomed more in Poland than the surrounding countries of Europe, hence the larger Jewish populations.

    It would then be a ideal place for extermination due to transportation issues.
  5. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    01 Feb '18 17:111 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I learned that Jews were welcomed more in Poland than the surrounding countries of Europe, hence the larger Jewish populations.

    It would then be a ideal place for extermination due to transportation issues.
    Yes, dating back to the 1600's and earlier, Poland was more welcoming to the Jews than western European countries. It's not necessarily because the Polish people were so welcoming, but more because of the weakness and decentralization of the Polish monarchy, which put most of the power in regional lords. These regional lords were willing to accept Jews who could help them manage their finances more so than monarchs of Spain, France and Austria, who had consolidated holds on their countries.

    So yes, most Jews were in Poland and occupied Russia.

    Still, if the Nazis thought they had as much freedom to exterminate Jews in western Europe as in Poland, they'd have build extermination camps there too. Instead, the 6 major extermination camps (Chelmno, Belsec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Maidenek and Auschwitz) were all build in Poland and the Nazis expended extensive resources to railroad western European Jews across the continent.

    They didn't build an extermination camp in Leon or Copenhagen or Rome or Amsterdam because they knew they'd encounter more local resistance than in Poland. At least that's the probable reason. There are other possibilities (e.g., that they didn't want to offend submissive puppet governments or Aryan subjects), but I don't completely buy them.
  6. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 20:06
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Well, who says what?
    If you ask me, the Polish State can’t have been responsible. It was run by the Nazis.

    But why on Earth pass a bill about it?

    One would think the Polish people / politicians are being very guarded about their image of innocense.

    Makes one wonder if they’re hiding something...
    Perhaps some deep felt sentiments?
    Sort of lik ...[text shortened]... olocaust.
    The bill amendment, which sets fines or a maximum three-year jail term as punishment.
    The cocksure historical ignorance here is overwhelming.

    "I dunno. I’m sure anti-Jewish sentiment wasn’t rife in Poland in the 30’s and 40’s."
    --Shavixmir

    FALSE. I know some persons of Polish Jewish heritage who would strongly dispute Shavixmir.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto_benches

    "Under the ghetto ławkowe system, Jewish university students were required under threat of
    expulsion, to sit in a left-hand side section of the lecture halls reserved exclusively for them.
    This official policy of enforced segregation was often accompanied by acts of violence directed
    against Jewish students by members of the ONR (outlawed after three months in 1934)
    and other extreme right and anti-Semitic organizations like the National Democracy movement.[5][6]
    The seating in benches marked a peak of antisemitism in Poland between the world wars..."

    "If you ask me, the Polish State can’t have been responsible. It was run by the Nazis."
    --Shavixmir

    No one should ask anyone as historically ignorant as Shavixmir.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946

    Anti-Jewish violence by Poles continued in Poland AFTER the Nazis were no longer there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    "The Kielce Pogrom was an outbreak of violence against the Jewish community centre's
    gathering of refugees in the city of Kielce, Poland on *4 July 1946* by Polish soldiers, police
    officers, and civilians[1] during which 42 Jews were killed and more than 40 were wounded."
  7. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 20:13
    Originally posted by @sh76 to Whodey
    Yes, dating back to the 1600's and earlier, Poland was more welcoming to the Jews than western European countries. It's not necessarily because the Polish people were so welcoming, but more because of the weakness and decentralization of the Polish monarchy, which put most of the power in regional lords. These regional lords were willing to accept Je ...[text shortened]... ant to offend submissive puppet governments or Aryan subjects), but I don't completely buy them.
    In one film, I can recall seeing a candid acknowledgement of Polish anti-Semitism.
    A Jew (together with a non-Jew) has escaped from the Nazis and is attempting to hide in Poland.
    They are initially welcomed by members of the AK (Home Army), who are fiercely anti-Nazi.
    The non-Jew advises the Jew to do everything possible to conceal one's Jewish identity
    and pass as Catholic. Otherwise, ther Poles likely would hand over the Jew to the Nazis.
    Eventually, the Poles discover that they have been helping a Jew, who's then immediately expelled.

    In wartime Poland, a Jew on the run might find some Poles who were sympathetic or even
    helpful, but one would have to be wary of many Poles who would inform, if for no other
    motive than the hope of a reward from the Nazis.
  8. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    01 Feb '18 21:51
    Honestly, I think that the legislation was made thinking that it wouldn't be controversial on some international stage.

    The Polish had over a million people killed by the Nazis by virtue of being Slavs. Also, the Poles were invaded and divided by the Soviets and Nazis... There's literally no reason to believe that they have some weird sympathies with the Nazis.

    It's also like you're saying....

    "By not wanting to be thought of as complicit with the first genocide...they're actually signaling that they approve of genocide."

    That takes a lot of funny guesswork and reasoning.

    If you think that's the case, then literally you wouldn't be happy unless the Polish people apologized, like Germans, for .... Having their country invaded and turned into death camps.

    ... And why we're the death camps in the East?

    Less people watching, lower profile, less chance of escape to the West.
  9. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    01 Feb '18 21:52
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    In one film, I can recall seeing a candid acknowledgement of Polish anti-Semitism.
    A Jew (together with a non-Jew) has escaped from the Nazis and is attempting to hide in Poland.
    They are initially welcomed by members of the AK (Home Army), who are fiercely anti-Nazi.
    The non-Jew advises the Jew to do everything possible to conceal one's Jewish identi ...[text shortened]... f many Poles who would inform, if for no other
    motive than the hope of a reward from the Nazis.
    A fictional film account isn't a source.
  10. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 22:04
    Originally posted by @jacob-verville
    A fictional film account isn't a source.
    Jacob-Verville jumps to an absurd conclusion.

    I was NOT citing a film (dramatization) as a historical source in itself.
    I was mentioning the fact that this film RECOGNIZED THE REALITY, according to historical
    sources, that Polish anti-Semitism existed before, during, and after the Second World War.
  11. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 22:151 edit
    Originally posted by @jacob-verville
    Honestly, I think that the legislation was made thinking that it wouldn't be controversial on some international stage.

    The Polish had over a million people killed by the Nazis by virtue of being Slavs. Also, the Poles were invaded and divided by the Soviets and Nazis... There's literally no reason to believe that they have some weird sympathies w ...[text shortened]... th camps in the East?

    Less people watching, lower profile, less chance of escape to the West.
    Jacob-Verville shows his extreme historical ignorance by assuming that Poland must
    have had nothing in common with the Third Reich.

    In fact, during the Munich Crisis, Poland was on Hitler's side. Poland had its own territorial
    demand against Czechoslovakia. After Germany annexed the Sudetenland and Poland
    annexed Teschen, Polish crowds cheered the German ambassador when he appeared in Warsaw.

    "There's literally no reason to believe that they have some weird sympathies with the Nazis."
    --Jacob-Verville

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

    The USSR massacred 20,000+ Polish POWs (largely officers) at Katyn.
    The Western allies knew the truth but persistently lied about it, blaming this crime upon the Germans.
    Most Poles themselves believed from the start that the USSR was guilty of this war crime.
    The Katyn Massacre motivated some Poles to start collaborating more with Germany.

    Even before the Katyn Massacre had become known, Franz Halder (then chief of the
    German general staff) wrote that about 15,000 Poles had volunteered to serve (in non-combat
    roles) in the Wehrmacht that invaded the USSR (Russia was Poland's traditional enemy).
    Many, if not most, right-wing Poles perceived the USSR as an enemy worse than Germany.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    01 Feb '18 22:18
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Well, who says what?
    If you ask me, the Polish State can’t have been responsible. It was run by the Nazis.

    But why on Earth pass a bill about it?

    One would think the Polish people / politicians are being very guarded about their image of innocense.

    Makes one wonder if they’re hiding something...
    Perhaps some deep felt sentiments?
    Sort of lik ...[text shortened]... olocaust.
    The bill amendment, which sets fines or a maximum three-year jail term as punishment.
    Poland's Senate has approved a controversial bill making it illegal to accuse the Polish nation or state of complicity in the Nazi Holocaust.
    The bill amendment, which sets fines or a maximum three-year jail term as punishment.


    Such a claim should be met with evidence to the contrary, not with the State throwing you in jail for making it.
  13. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 22:21
    Originally posted by @no1marauder to Shavixmir
    Poland's Senate has approved a controversial bill making it illegal to accuse the Polish nation or state of complicity in the Nazi Holocaust.
    The bill amendment, which sets fines or a maximum three-year jail term as punishment.

    Such a claim should be met with evidence to the contrary, not with the State throwing you in jail for making it.
    As I recall, Russia has criminalized expressing 'incorrect' views about the Great Patriotic War,
    which presumably could include citing evidence of Soviet war crimes.
  14. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    01 Feb '18 22:25
    Oh, sure, there were some ugly aspects aboit Polish nationalism before, but this is the literal reality of the situation, my friend:

    [Quote]The original assumptions of the Nazi master plans, which were completely detached from reality, entailed the expulsion and mass extermination of around 85% (over 20 million) of the ethnically Polish citizens of Poland, with the remaining 15% to be turned into slaves.[5] In 2000, by an Act of the Polish Parliament, the dissemination of knowledge on the subject of Nazi German crimes in World War II was entrusted to an institute,[6] which replaced the former Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes against the Polish Nation.[7][8]
    ...
    On 22 August 1939, just before the invasion of Poland, Hitler gave explicit permission to his commanders to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language."[11][12]

    Ethnic cleansing was to be conducted systematically against Polish people: on 7 September 1939 Reinhard Heydrich stated that all Polish nobles, clergy and Jews are to be killed.[13] On 12 September, Wilhelm Keitel added the intelligentsia to the list. On 15 March 1940, Himmler stated: "All Polish specialists will be exploited in our military-industrial complex. Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German nation considers the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task."[14] At the end of 1940, Hitler confirmed his pronouncement demanding liquidation of "all leading elements in Poland".[13][/quote]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation

    The Nazis were actively destroying the Polish for who they were, not entirely dissimilar to the Jewish situation.

    Another reason for there to be death camps in Poland.

    It sounds like you're trying to diminish the suffering of the Polish and using some fictional movie to talk aboit it.

    But it's ok.

    Sometimes, movies are based on literal, actual events, like this one:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3228100/extraordinary-story-of-how-fearless-couple-hid-300-jews-and-polish-fighters-from-nazis-in-warsaw-zoo-is-turned-into-hollywood-movie/

    Please don't blame the regular Polish people and portray them as evil collaborators.

    Its very disrespectful and inaccurate.
  15. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 22:38
    Originally posted by @jacob-verville
    Oh, sure, there were some ugly aspects aboit Polish nationalism before, but this is the literal reality of the situation, my friend:

    [Quote]The original assumptions of the Nazi master plans, which were completely detached from reality, entailed the expulsion and mass extermination of around 85% (over 20 million) of the ethnically Polish citizens o ...[text shortened]... Polish people and portray them as evil collaborators.

    Its very disrespectful and inaccurate.
    The fact (of which I already was well aware) that the Nazis committed many terrible crimes
    against Poland does NOT excuse Polish crimes against other peoples (including Jews).
    Jacob-Verville might as well argue that Nazi crimes against the USSR should excuse the
    Soviet massacre of Poles at Katyn.
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