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  1. 19 May '11 15:52 / 1 edit
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are support a common union, but how is the country viewed? Is this a single nation and single people? Or is this a union of different regions? The US Constitution has set up a government based on regionalism, but the Federal Government has grown in power and the Supreme Court has not checked the expansion of power.

    So far all I've done is ramble and I can't quite put the finger on the exact thing that is bugging me about this subject, but I'm hoping further discussion will clarify.

    The comment that was made that brought this up was Sh76's comment about the electoral college. It really doesn't make sense in a proporational model, but makes perfect sense in a regional. Rejecting the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    19 May '11 16:03
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are ...[text shortened]... g the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
    Please. The electoral college was a hastily put together compromise at the Convention when no other method of selecting the President could muster majority support. Supposing it represents some critical "regionalism" is nonsense historically.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 May '11 16:24
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are ...[text shortened]... g the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
    Honestly, I don't think the electoral college makes sense under any model. It's an anachronism. But, it makes things much more interesting on horse race election blogs and on election night and for that reason alone, I'm willing to live with it. With the notable exception of Bush v. Gore (where the election was decided by a rounding error in any case), it rarely makes a difference.

    Proportional representation allows minor parties to have a say in the governing process and that in itself is a good enough reason for me to like the idea of having one House elected proportionately.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 May '11 16:26
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are ...[text shortened]... g the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
    PS: If anything represented regionalism in the Constitution it's the non-existence of proportionate representation and the usage of districts as the sole means to elect representatives.
  5. 19 May '11 17:19
    Originally posted by sh76
    PS: If anything represented regionalism in the Constitution it's the non-existence of proportionate representation and the usage of districts as the sole means to elect representatives.
    Exactly and the electoral college was a logical continuation of the idea.
  6. 19 May '11 18:00
    Originally posted by sh76
    Honestly, I don't think the electoral college makes sense under any model. It's an anachronism. But, it makes things much more interesting on horse race election blogs and on election night and for that reason alone, I'm willing to live with it. With the notable exception of Bush v. Gore (where the election was decided by a rounding error in any case), it rarel ...[text shortened]... is a good enough reason for me to like the idea of having one House elected proportionately.
    By incorporating both the equal representation in the Senate with the proportional representation in the House, the electoral college is a way of giving small states a larger voice when it comes to who will be President.

    The US is supposed to be a Union of individual regions that give up some rights for mutual defense, not a all powerful Federal government.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 May '11 18:07
    Originally posted by Eladar
    By incorporating both the equal representation in the Senate with the proportional representation in the House, the electoral college is a way of giving small states a larger voice when it comes to who will be President.

    The US is supposed to be a Union of individual regions that give up some rights for mutual defense, not a all powerful Federal government.
    That's not what 'proportional representation" means. In this context, that means sending people to Congress based on each person voting for a nationwide party or nationwide slate of candidates and then allocating the seats based on vote percentage totals. What we have in the House is each district electing its own representative.
  8. 19 May '11 18:19
    I never said what we have is proportional representation. What I'm saying is that we have the exact opposite.
  9. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    19 May '11 19:32
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are ...[text shortened]... g the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
    The electoral college was to prevent a charlatan from fooling voters. The Founders envisaged that a demagogue could make promises that were nothing but lies but nevertheless might fool enough people to get him elected. The electoral college would then block that.
  10. 19 May '11 22:03
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    The electoral college was to prevent a charlatan from fooling voters. The Founders envisaged that a demagogue could make promises that were nothing but lies but nevertheless might fool enough people to get him elected. The electoral college would then block that.
    Holy crap, seriously? They haven't got one right in generations.
  11. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    19 May '11 23:30
    Interesting discussion.

    Beyond ensuring minority party/parties representation, proportional representation in the House (on a state-by-state basis) would certainly stop the stupid practice of gerrymandering, which would be enough to win my consideration, at the least.
  12. 20 May '11 09:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I saw this topic in the "new government" thread and thought it was worthy of discussion on its own. I think it is important because I think it represents the fundamental difference between US style Republic and European style governments. I think this is important because the US is moving away from its roots and toward the European model.

    Both models are g the electoral college is nothing more than a rejection of the regional roots of the US.
    What is the "European model"?
  13. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    20 May '11 11:38
    Originally posted by dryhump
    Holy crap, seriously? They haven't got one right in generations.
  14. 20 May '11 13:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What is the "European model"?
    Proportional representation. It is a model based on a dominant central government.