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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    13 Sep '17 16:28
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    ...and the False equivalence award goes to. .

    The fact is that car theft is indeed theft and nobody says otherwise. Similarly rape is rape.

    Sure fewer people (not nobody) would lose their car if the car stayed at home in a locked garage. Fewer (not nobody) would get raped if they stayed at home in a locked garage. But neither is a realistic scenario.

    In the real world, however ...
    I think you missed the point here...

    I could easily go to a safer neighborhood and buy my whiskey, lock my car, and the cars safety system would take care of the rest. There is a reason to tell my son to be careful with the car.

    And there is a point to tell my daughter to have fun and be careful.
    But if the worst would happen - I would never blame her for being raped.
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
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    13 Sep '17 16:40
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    I think you missed the point here...

    I could easily go to a safer neighborhood and buy my whiskey, lock my car, and the cars safety system would take care of the rest. There is a reason to tell my son to be careful with the car.

    And there is a point to tell my daughter to have fun and be careful.
    But if the worst would happen - I would never blame her for being raped.
    I think that is very nice but I agree that I miss the point.

    What lessons should we draw from this other than our utter separation from the lifestyles described in this case? it does not mean that your daughter, or mine, is necessarily less vulnerable to assault by men.
  3. Joined
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    13 Sep '17 16:52
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    I think that is very nice but I agree that I miss the point.

    What lessons should we draw from this other than our utter separation from the lifestyles described in this case? it does not mean that your daughter, or mine, is necessarily less vulnerable to assault by men.
    When I was a boy I was very carefully instructed to not follow unknown men anywhere. Not even if he offered me candy, offered a ride in his fancy car, or known my name and told me the he is a friend of the family and it is all right. I was instructed in safety procedures in other areas too. And I didn't mind. Nothing grave happened to me. My parents advises perhaps saved me from things, perhaps not, I don't know or remember.

    This I have done to my daughter too, knowing that she sometimes will forget it. But getting her less naïve and more cautious would save her from some nasty experiences. This is *before*.

    But the very time I have to visit her at the local hospital after a rape or an accident, the she perhaps, perhaps not, could avoid, I would never, ever, blame her for being raped, hit, stolen or whatever. Because it is never her fault that people does things to her that is illegal or immoral. This is *after*.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
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    13 Sep '17 18:16
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    When I was a boy I was very carefully instructed to not follow unknown men anywhere. Not even if he offered me candy, offered a ride in his fancy car, or known my name and told me the he is a friend of the family and it is all right. I was instructed in safety procedures in other areas too. And I didn't mind. Nothing grave happened to me. My parents advi ...[text shortened]... t is never her fault that people does things to her that is illegal or immoral. This is *after*.
    Fine. I can't imagine anyone on this forum has difficulty understanding your elaborate hypothetical scenarios.

    It is usually family members who abuse children but it is nice that that was never likely to arise in yours.

    We have yet to hear from the gun lobby on this topic. Perhaps when drunk one should carry a gun and blast anyone who looks the wrong way. That would be pretty prudent I should think. Just shoot them.

    But the issue is not our basic reading comprehension skills - we do not need an even more elaborate explanation from you. The issue is what is the point of your car theft analogy in the context of this thread and how does it add anything new that was not already dealt with before you started laboriously typing it all out with your back hunched over the keyboard in a terrible posture and your tongue doubtless hanging from between your teeth like a labrador wanting a walk?
  5. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 07:04
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Fine. I can't imagine anyone on this forum has difficulty understanding your elaborate hypothetical scenarios.

    It is usually family members who abuse children but it is nice that that was never likely to arise in yours.

    We have yet to hear from the gun lobby on this topic. Perhaps when drunk one should carry a gun and blast anyone who looks the wr ...[text shortened]... osture and your tongue doubtless hanging from between your teeth like a labrador wanting a walk?
    This concept of *before* and *after* is very hard for people to grasp the first time they hear it. Therefore I had to be elaborate.

    What should a girl do before the rape happened, according to the OP?
    In the best of worlds she should feel safe that this thing would, could, never happen.
    But this is not the best of worlds. This world we live in is full of people that are not good people.

    If I went to a party and noticed that people drink alcohol too much, take drugs, being unfriendly even violent - I would leave. And I would persuade my friends and those I care for to leave as well.
    This girl should do that too.
    But this is *before*. We all know what happened, but only *after* when things are too late.
  6. Standard membersh76
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    14 Sep '17 12:591 edit
    Duplicate
  7. Standard membersh76
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    14 Sep '17 12:591 edit
    We blame crime victims all the time and it's appropriate in many cases. If someone falls for one of those Prince of Nigeria email schemes, the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot. If someone walks around an unsafe neighborhood at 2 AM alone with a conspicuous gold chain showing and cash hanging out of his pockets and gets mugged, is nobody going to note his abysmally stupid behavior when discussing the crime? When I was at the US Attorney's office, we had an office policy that we did prosecute theft crimes if the victim were trying to perpetrate a scam, but got "outscammed" by someone else.

    Does any of this excuse the crime? Of course not. Should the punishment be diminished at all? No way. But it's axiomatic that a crime victim who behaves foolishly or takes needless risks is at least partially to blame for his or her predicament.

    For some reason, it's not PC to apply these self-evident truths to rape victims; but that's just PC crap. While the victim taking needless and stupid risks doesn't diminish the guilt of the rapist one iota, of course it's right to question the actions of the victim.
  8. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 13:49
    Originally posted by @sh76
    We blame crime victims all the time and it's appropriate in many cases. If someone falls for one of those Prince of Nigeria email schemes, the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot. If someone walks around an unsafe neighborhood at 2 AM alone with a conspicuous gold chain showing and cash hanging out of his pockets and gets mugged, is nobody g ...[text shortened]... sh the guilt of the rapist one iota, of course it's right to question the actions of the victim.
    "the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot."
    that's because it's funny in some cases. depending on who the victim is and the amount of money lost, it becomes less and less funny and the person making fun of the victim more and more of an ashole. if a college frat boy loses his beer money, it's funny. if a granny loses her last savings and has to go hungry, it's sad and one is scum for making fun of her. if a child plays with matches, sets the house on fire and dies in the process, you are worse than scum if you make fun or assign blame.

    we don't equate rape with a nigerian mail scam, we don't blame the victim and we don't make fun of the victim. because we are decent human beings. Right?

    "But it's axiomatic that a crime victim who behaves foolishly or takes needless risks is at least partially to blame for his or her predicament."
    yet basic decency should give you pause


    "For some reason, it's not PC to apply these self-evident truths to rape victims"
    it's called human decency. that's the reason. it's also a synonim for PC, something which people like you keep mentioning as a complaint that being an ashole is frowned upon in human society.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
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    14 Sep '17 14:091 edit
    Originally posted by @sh76
    We blame crime victims all the time and it's appropriate in many cases. If someone falls for one of those Prince of Nigeria email schemes, the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot. If someone walks around an unsafe neighborhood at 2 AM alone with a conspicuous gold chain showing and cash hanging out of his pockets and gets mugged, is nobody g ...[text shortened]... sh the guilt of the rapist one iota, of course it's right to question the actions of the victim.
    Sadly for your reasonable opinion here, the reality is that victim blaming is a tactic used routinely by rape apologists, not only in the media but in the courts. That kind of flawed reasoning has enabled many rapists to walk free.

    My experience parenting two daughters is that the level of protection and caution I would require for me to feel they were entirely safe is not compatible with allowing them to make their own choices and their own mistakes. The model of life that says we must live prudently and cautiously, "trust noone; suspect everyone" belongs in a cartoon or a comedy movie. In reality, we live riskily and foolishly and that is how we must live if we are to live at all.

    That being the case, when bad things do happen, as they will, it is singularly unhelpful for the old farts of this world to smugly remind us that we have been foolish and taken risks. No bad thing happens without the possibility of an alternative reality in which a different choice might have avoided catastrophe. No bad things happens that does not afford to the smug farts of this world the enjoyment of their perfect hindsight. The most common feature of any victim's distress is the endless "what-if" scenarios in which a different path might have been followed.

    How many times do we hear of a passenger missing the plane that crashed through a last minute chance event? How may people exclaim "There but for the grace of God go I"?

    Nonsense, nonsense and nonsense. It is wrong headed and mischievous to blame victims for rape.
  10. Standard membersh76
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    14 Sep '17 14:381 edit
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    "the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot."
    that's because it's funny in some cases. depending on who the victim is and the amount of money lost, it becomes less and less funny and the person making fun of the victim more and more of an ashole. if a college frat boy loses his beer money, it's funny. if a granny loses her last savings and ...[text shortened]... e like you keep mentioning as a complaint that being an ashole is frowned upon in human society.
    By the same token, one can use crimes as teachable moments (as in "don't take the stupid risks that crime victim took" ) if we weren't so terrified of being labelled crime sympathizers.

    Of course it's insensitive to have pallid fun by ripping crime victims. But the OP's question was: "Is it ever right to question the actions of the victim?"

    If used sincerely as an educational message, the answer is clearly yes.

    Facts don't care about snowflake sensibilities. Behaving in a safe manner and not taking unnecessary and stupid risks is smart behavior. Telling people that is good.
  11. Standard membersh76
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    14 Sep '17 14:411 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Sadly for your reasonable opinion here, the reality is that victim blaming is a tactic used routinely by rape apologists, not only in the media but in the courts. That kind of flawed reasoning has enabled many rapists to walk free.

    My experience parenting two daughters is that the level of protection and caution I would require for me to feel they ...[text shortened]...
    Nonsense, nonsense and nonsense. It is wrong headed and mischievous to blame victims for rape.
    === That being the case, when bad things do happen, as they will, it is singularly unhelpful for the old farts of this world to smugly remind us that we have been foolish and taken risks. ===

    I disagree.

    Pointing to crime victims as warnings to others about avoiding engaging in risky behavior is a powerful tool in the educational toolbox.

    As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best.
  12. Subscriberhuckleberryhound
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    14 Sep '17 15:06
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    I think you missed the point here...

    I could easily go to a safer neighborhood and buy my whiskey, lock my car, and the cars safety system would take care of the rest. There is a reason to tell my son to be careful with the car.

    And there is a point to tell my daughter to have fun and be careful.
    But if the worst would happen - I would never blame her for being raped.
    This is how i feel. I will tell my daughter that blind drunk, arse up in a stranger's house is not a good look. But if anything happened, i'd do time.
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    14 Sep '17 15:24
    Originally posted by @sh76
    We blame crime victims all the time and it's appropriate in many cases. If someone falls for one of those Prince of Nigeria email schemes, the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot. If someone walks around an unsafe neighborhood at 2 AM alone with a conspicuous gold chain showing and cash hanging out of his pockets and gets mugged, is nobody g ...[text shortened]... sh the guilt of the rapist one iota, of course it's right to question the actions of the victim.
    So in my 9/11 scenario, is "partial blame" appropriate or not?
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    14 Sep '17 15:29
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    "the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot."
    that's because it's funny in some cases. depending on who the victim is and the amount of money lost, it becomes less and less funny and the person making fun of the victim more and more of an ashole. if a college frat boy loses his beer money, it's funny. if a granny loses her last savings and ...[text shortened]... e like you keep mentioning as a complaint that being an ashole is frowned upon in human society.
    Perhaps if you had human decency, you wouldn't be so quick to laugh at the misfortune of people you don't sympathize with (frat boys in your example) but not even examine the behavior of people you do sympathize with (rape victims).
    Often we can prevent crime by avoiding certain pitfalls. Perhaps both frat boys and rape victims could avoid misfortune if they monitored there alcohol consumption or made sure they were with buddies instead of strangers or a whole host of other precautions. Are you so unwilling to point out that a victim possibly made mistakes that you wouldn't take action that can make society a safer place?
  15. Standard memberfinnegan
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    14 Sep '17 15:301 edit
    Originally posted by @sh76
    === That being the case, when bad things do happen, as they will, it is singularly unhelpful for the old farts of this world to smugly remind us that we have been foolish and taken risks. ===

    I disagree.

    Pointing to crime victims as warnings to others about avoiding engaging in risky behavior is a powerful tool in the educational toolbox.

    As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best.
    You seem blind to the difference between a burnt hand and an educational toolbox.

    The first entails learning through personal experience, including one's mistakes, the second entails a wishful anticipation that one's children will learn the intended lesson in the intended way.

    I wonder why I need to spell out the futility of the second.

    Besides, there are an awful lot of risks in life which I fear calls for an ambitious curriculum.
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