Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    10 Dec '18 02:57
    @no1marauder said
    I never "justify" terrorism i.e. the deliberate targeting of civilians in any way, shape or form.

    Yes I know you believe in some sort of world wide crusade against Islam on the basis of your personal belief that the religion is "evil". We have examined your vehement hatred toward Islam and Muslims in literally hundreds of threads here; it is tiresome to see yet another thread be transformed into such a predictable tirade.
    I simply point to the death and violence caused by it on a historical level.

    And as I have said, Left wingers have cause much more death and violence, so perhaps they are the biggest threat of all.
  2. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    11 Dec '18 15:20
    @no1marauder said
    Then you think like Osama Bin Laden.
    A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what you (no1) think of the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo (and others) bombing raids. Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?
  3. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    11 Dec '18 15:29
    @sh76 said
    A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what you (no1) think of the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo (and others) bombing raids. Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?
    I ask because, I admit, I can't be objective about, particularly, Dresden and Hamburg (and the like). Whenever I try to think about it, a big black "F the Germans. Let them burn!" (the WWII-era Germans, not the current ones) just takes over my whole brain. Trying to clear that out of my brain would be too much work. I hope you'll understand that, given that they gassed all my ancestors who were still on European soil as of January 1, 1942 (or maybe some of them were shot, I don't really know). But Dresden in particular, a massive fire raid at a civilian, mainly cultural, city after the war was already all but won, would seem to at least pose serious questions.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    11 Dec '18 15:59
    @sh76 said
    A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what you (no1) think of the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo (and others) bombing raids. Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?
    I think they would certainly be considered war crimes today and should have been considered war crimes then.
  5. Zugzwang
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    11 Dec '18 22:553 edits
    @sh76 said
    A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what you (no1) think of the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo (and others) bombing raids. Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?
    (Sh76 replied to No1Marauder.)

    "Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?"
    --Sh76

    Regarding 'military necessity', there's not a 'one size fits all' answer because the military circumstances varied.

    One could more convincingly make the case that bombing Dresden (which was hardly
    defended at all) in February 1945 was overkill, where the civilian casualties outweighed
    the marginal military utility.

    One should note that RAF Bomber Command policy (approved at the highest level
    by Winston Churchill, though Arthur Harris later got most of the blame and censure)
    had long been to kill (one euphemism was 'dehouse' ) as many German civilians
    as possible in the hope that German morale would break. After the bombing of Hamburg,
    Albert Speer (pessimistically) said that several more attacks like it could break German morale.

    By the way, after the bombing of Hamburg, there were many civilians horribly burned,
    who had no realistic hope of survival (the medical services were overwhelmed),
    and faced only agonizing deaths. Reportedly, the Nazis organized some 'mercy squads'
    of volunteers who shot some of these people in order to spare them further suffering.
    If still conscious, some of these people reportedly said that they preferred quicker deaths.
  6. Joined
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    12 Dec '18 03:23
    @no1marauder said
    I think they would certainly be considered war crimes today and should have been considered war crimes then.
    Would you say that the attack on the US embassy in Libya was justified?
  7. Joined
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    12 Dec '18 03:261 edit
    @sh76 said
    A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what you (no1) think of the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo (and others) bombing raids. Were they justified by military necessity or war crimes (or something in between)?
    The citizens of these cities could be viewed as military targets considering that they were probably hyper propagandized and ready to fight to the death once troops arrived there.

    There is no real end to rationalizing away civilian deaths, and even less of a chance of preventing them.

    War = civilians dying in mass and the state is the guilty party in each case.

    There is no other means of mass killing. Genocide is also a product of the state. Together, history tells us that the state is a killing machine like no other.

    Meanwhile, the state continues to try and disarm private citizens as if they are the real threat to humanity. History just keeps repeating itself.
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