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Debates Forum

  1. 19 Aug '17 14:26
    Mexicans and Jamaicans are brought to the USA with temporary work-visas to do jobs. These workers increase the supply of workers in the USA to lessen demand. This keeps the wages of low skilled workers low. After all, if demand for workers by employers does not increase they do not have to raise the starting wage to attract workers. This is what would cause wages to increase without a minimum wage hike. Since the supply of workers is being artificially increased, unskilled workers are now more dependent on minimum wage hikes for a more fair wage. Since minimum wage has not kept up with inflation since 1968 that amounts to economic slavery of unskilled workers.

    If Trump wanted to, could he end this with an executive order?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-exclusive-idUSKCN0Q62RQ20150802

    When Trump says America First, isn't it just a big lie? Doesn't he mean business owners first?
  2. 19 Aug '17 16:01 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Mexicans and Jamaicans are brought to the USA with temporary work-visas to do jobs. These workers increase the supply of workers in the USA to lessen demand. This keeps the wages of low skilled workers low. After all, if demand for workers by employers does not increase they do not have to raise the starting wage to attract workers. This is what would c ...[text shortened]...
    When Trump says America First, isn't it just a big lie? Doesn't he mean business owners first?
    The primary reason for most governenments in developed markets permitting influxes of large amounts of migrant low-skilled workers is to keep local inflation low and achieve their manifesto commitments. Of course the social infrastructure of those countries, such as free healthcare for example, is paid for through the tax yield and fiscially maintained by a per head of population contribution. As the population of low tax yield workers increases over decades, the cost of running these services goes up proportionally but the tax yield doesn't. Hence the need in some countries for improved immigration management.

    But hey, this thinking is racism
  3. 19 Aug '17 16:16
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Mexicans and Jamaicans are brought to the USA with temporary work-visas to do jobs. These workers increase the supply of workers in the USA to lessen demand. This keeps the wages of low skilled workers low. After all, if demand for workers by employers does not increase they do not have to raise the starting wage to attract workers. This is what would c ...[text shortened]...
    When Trump says America First, isn't it just a big lie? Doesn't he mean business owners first?
    It is very easy to have both open borders and to guarantee a comfortable standard of living for people performing low-skilled labour. Trump could not do this with an executive order, since some legislation would be required. Of course, Trump also lacks interest and expertise in economic matters.
  4. 19 Aug '17 16:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    It is very easy to have both open borders and to guarantee a comfortable standard of living for people performing low-skilled labour. Trump could not do this with an executive order, since some legislation would be required. Of course, Trump also lacks interest and expertise in economic matters.
    I know we have disagreed in the past, but if you are willing to discuss how your ideas could be implemented without responding to my replies by calling me a bigot, then this could be an interesting conversation.
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    19 Aug '17 16:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Mexicans and Jamaicans are brought to the USA with temporary work-visas to do jobs. These workers increase the supply of workers in the USA to lessen demand. This keeps the wages of low skilled workers low. After all, if demand for workers by employers does not increase they do not have to raise the starting wage to attract workers. This is what would c ...[text shortened]...
    When Trump says America First, isn't it just a big lie? Doesn't he mean business owners first?
    Mar-a-Lago recently ran two ads in local papers in order to satisfy the requirement of the H-2B visa program that they made efforts to hire Americans for their jobs but that they are not available.

    The ads were for waiters and offered an $11.88 an hour salary with no tips. It also required them to work nights, weekends, holidays at no additional pay. And it also insisted on "split shifts" i.e. it is common restaurant and bar practice to have workers come in for less than an 8 hour shift or even worse, to be "cut" or sent home in the middle of a shift if management decides they are no longer needed.

    It's rather unsurprising that not many Americans want such crappy jobs; surely absent the H-2B program, Mar-a-Lago would either have to pay more or relax its onerous conditions of employment.

    Don't hold your breath waiting for Donald Trump to change that.

    EDIT: Here's an article containing the ad mentioned: http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/08/07/want-a-seasonal-job-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-club-fire-up-the-fax-but-the-number-doesnt-seem-to-work-realdonaldtrump/

    Amusingly, the ad contains no phone number or e-mail address and asks American workers to apply by fax or mail.
  6. 19 Aug '17 17:11
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    I know we have disagreed in the past, but if you are willing to discuss how your ideas could be implemented without responding to my replies by calling me a bigot, then this could be an interesting conversation.
    Tax policy, in combination with adequate public services, can be used to adjust net purchasing power for people performing low-skilled labour.
  7. 19 Aug '17 17:16
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Tax policy, in combination with adequate public services, can be used to adjust net purchasing power for people performing low-skilled labour.
    How, exactly?
    In response to my post above, specifically.
  8. 19 Aug '17 17:23
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    How, exactly?
    In response to my post above, specifically.
    I don't understand what you are asking. How, exactly, what?
  9. 19 Aug '17 17:24
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    I don't understand what you are asking. How, exactly, what?
    "Tax policy, in combination with adequate public services, can be used to adjust net purchasing power for people performing low-skilled labour."

    How, exactly?
    I mean in context and contrast with what I posted originally.
  10. 19 Aug '17 17:33
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    "Tax policy, in combination with adequate public services, can be used to adjust net purchasing power for people performing low-skilled labour."

    How, exactly?
    I mean in context and contrast with what I posted originally.
    By making taxes more progressive (for example in conjunction with a negative income tax or universal basic income), and through providing access to services such as health care and education as well as decent quality social housing.
  11. 23 Aug '17 14:22
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Mar-a-Lago recently ran two ads in local papers in order to satisfy the requirement of the H-2B visa program that they made efforts to hire Americans for their jobs but that they are not available.

    The ads were for waiters and offered an $11.88 an hour salary with no tips. It also required them to work nights, weekends, holidays at no additional pay. ...[text shortened]... ad contains no phone number or e-mail address and asks American workers to apply by fax or mail.
    Americans will do any crappy job if it pays enough. My point is that allowing foreigners to take low paying jobs makes certain that those crappy jobs do NOT get a pay hike like they should.
    Prohibiting businesses from paying foreigners to do a job will inevitably leave those businesses with no choice but to pay a higher wage to attract domestic labor. This law of supply and demand is being mucked up to suppress wages.
    The whole notion that these foreigners are doing work that Americans will not do is a farce. Pay them a fair wage and Americans will do any job. This is how wages are supposed to rise without a minimum wage. Since minimum wage has not kept up with inflation we are left with economic slavery of low skilled workers. Obama never did anything about it and neither is Trump.
  12. 23 Aug '17 14:37
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    It is very easy to have both open borders and to guarantee a comfortable standard of living for people performing low-skilled labour. Trump could not do this with an executive order, since some legislation would be required. Of course, Trump also lacks interest and expertise in economic matters.
    Why not?
    Trump prevented foreigners from certain countries from getting here with an executive order. There was some resistance from certain judges, but I think that was only because Trump said he wanted to ban Muslims during the campaign. If he had not said that it would have been unchallenged.

    Right now my government provides a comfortable standard of living for low wage workers with welfare. Without welfare there would be no comfortable standard of living. As a result, low wage workers are dependent on welfare when they should not be dependent on anyone but their employer to pay a fair wage.

    Apparently you like people to be on welfare. Can't your socialist mindset accept another way? Must all people be dependent on government so they are fooled into thinking government is their friend instead of their enemy? If I gave to you with one hand and stole from you with another would I be your friend?
  13. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    23 Aug '17 14:48
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Mexicans and Jamaicans are brought to the USA with temporary work-visas to do jobs. These workers increase the supply of workers in the USA to lessen demand. This keeps the wages of low skilled workers low. After all, if demand for workers by employers does not increase they do not have to raise the starting wage to attract workers. This is what would c ...[text shortened]...
    When Trump says America First, isn't it just a big lie? Doesn't he mean business owners first?
    Really? Politicians actually favouring the ruling classes!!?!?!

    Really?
  14. 23 Aug '17 15:26
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Really? Politicians actually favouring the ruling classes!!?!?!

    Really?
    Jill Stein is not like that. There are good choices if you don't depend on the corporate news media for them.

    More than two choices? Could it really be? No one would think that watching NBC nightly news, but it is true. Jill Stein isn't even an imperialist like the two buddies that ran against each other in the 2 major political parties. Did you see their wedding pics together?
  15. 23 Aug '17 16:09
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Why not?
    Trump prevented foreigners from certain countries from getting here with an executive order. There was some resistance from certain judges, but I think that was only because Trump said he wanted to ban Muslims during the campaign. If he had not said that it would have been unchallenged.

    Right now my government provides a comfortable standar ...[text shortened]... ir enemy? If I gave to you with one hand and stole from you with another would I be your friend?
    Trump has significant authority to affect immigration policy, but such policies have little effect on the standard of living of low-wage American workers compared to tax policy. Trump cannot adjust tax policy by executive order.

    Your government does not provide a "comfortable standard of living" (compared to Nordic countries) for low-wage workers.

    I don't "like people to be on welfare."

    In all non-anarchist societies people are "dependent on government" for some things. All non-anarchists agree that the government is not an "enemy," but rather a tool that serves a legitimate purpose.