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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    06 Apr '15 06:10 / 1 edit
    Give me your thoughts sheeples.
    America's origins were protestant in nature. Protesting not only against a lack of religious liberty but also the entrenched corruption of the 'old world', nepotism, Royal decree's, aristocratic patronage and priveledge.
    Then came the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and its articles of ammendment, and for 150 years or so apart from the blight of slavery and the civil war, America was doing okay.
    The land of the free, a meritocracy where your persuit of wealth and happiness pretty much correlated well with the effort you put into your labour.

    But the 20th Century and now the 21st havent been that kind to the dreams of the founders. The institution of the Federal Reserve System, two world wars, Nato, the cold war, wars in Korea, Domino theory, Vietnam, the middle east, vassal states the world over, corporate imperialism, and one begins to wonder if the underlying fabric of American society can support the size and strength of this ruling capitalist beast!

    It seems to me the seeds of her decline are part and parcel of its perceived strengths.

    Patriotism and the flag can unite every citizen in an instant, but the success of its core values, freedom and individualism, also seem to chip away and erode the values of community and civil society. While Americans may think of themselves as being part of a great nation, their mistrust of government borders on the psychotic. Whereas most of its European peers have fully developed social welfare systems, the subject of workers rights, decent housing and access to a good education and health services provokes such a heated debate where every consequence from fascism to communism is entertained as the only destination the slippery slope of social welfare policies will bring should America fully embrace the wellbeing of all its citizens.

    And then zooming out a little bit, you see Ivy league institutions that charge 250k per degree, Corporations buying influence in Washington, Wall Street authoring the finance rules, and the incredible, disparity between what the top and bottom earn in any corporation and while names may have changed, after a brave experiment of 239 years, the 'old world' with all its cronyism and nepotism and corruption and elitism has returned in spades, and as its middle class increasingly dissapears, and the meritocracy that was to ensure the persuit of wealth and happiness for all, looks destined to crumble into a long forgootten dream.

    America, say it isnt so?
  2. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    06 Apr '15 06:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kmax87
    Give me your thoughts sheeples.
    America's origins were protestant in nature. Protesting not only against a lack of religious liberty but also the entrenched corruption........, looks destined to crumble into a long forgootten dream.

    America, say it isnt so?
    Is a tendency towards strong individual freedom incompatible with the ingredients required for a healthy well functioning society/nation?
  3. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    06 Apr '15 10:02
    Originally posted by kmax87
    Give me your thoughts sheeples.
    America's origins were protestant in nature. Protesting not only against a lack of religious liberty but also the entrenched corruption of the 'old world', nepotism, Royal decree's, aristocratic patronage and priveledge.
    Then came the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and its articles of ammendment, and for 150 ye ...[text shortened]... ess for all, looks destined to crumble into a long forgootten dream.

    America, say it isnt so?
    It's very possible that America is on a non stop decline, I would remind you however that a closer look at American standards of living of 50, 100, and 150 years ago make today's lifestyle look very good indeed. I'd say its still to early to predict America's demise.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    06 Apr '15 11:35
    Originally posted by kmax87
    Give me your thoughts sheeples.
    America's origins were protestant in nature. Protesting not only against a lack of religious liberty but also the entrenched corruption of the 'old world', nepotism, Royal decree's, aristocratic patronage and priveledge.
    Then came the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and its articles of ammendment, and for 150 ye ...[text shortened]... ess for all, looks destined to crumble into a long forgootten dream.

    America, say it isnt so?
    America will change and progress. The present right wing hysteria (which most Americans don't subscribe to) will pass into history as a major political force fairly soon.
  5. Standard member smw6869
    Granny
    06 Apr '15 19:01
    Originally posted by kmax87
    Give me your thoughts sheeples.
    America's origins were protestant in nature. Protesting not only against a lack of religious liberty but also the entrenched corruption of the 'old world', nepotism, Royal decree's, aristocratic patronage and priveledge.
    Then came the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and its articles of ammendment, and for 150 ye ...[text shortened]... ess for all, looks destined to crumble into a long forgootten dream.

    America, say it isnt so?
    Sheesh! and i thought tearing my new spandex jogging shorts was difficult to contemplate.


    GRANNY.
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Apr '15 23:00
    http://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-want-to-immigrate-to-the-United-States
  7. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    07 Apr '15 02:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-want-to-immigrate-to-the-United-States
    I would be interested in a more objective survey where say a 1000 immigrants from first world nations, who have long enjoyed the benefits of modern technology/infrastructure/education/free national healthcare/
    multiculturalism and anti discrimination frameworks that protect the rights of citizens to live as they choose, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, and compare their enthusiasm to that expressed by the author and the comments posted in the quora article.
  8. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    07 Apr '15 02:44
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I would be interested in a more objective survey where say a 1000 immigrants from first world nations, who have long enjoyed the benefits of modern technology/infrastructure/education/free national healthcare/
    multiculturalism and anti discrimination frameworks that protect the rights of citizens to live as they choose, regardless of gender or sexual orienta ...[text shortened]... e their enthusiasm to that expressed by the author and the comments posted in the quora article.
    Most of those things are completely the opposite of this

    "...protect the rights of citizens to live as they choose"

    Forcing people to pay for healthcare for those that are reckless and careless with their health is not 'live as they choose'.

    Forcing people to trade with those they'd prefer not to (for any whack reason they care to dream up) is not 'live as they choose'.

    Forcing ownership of a railway or airline, or television network on unwilling citizens is not 'live as they choose'.

    etc
  9. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    07 Apr '15 02:47 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by bill718
    It's very possible that America is on a non stop decline, I would remind you however that a closer look at American standards of living of 50, 100, and 150 years ago make today's lifestyle look very good indeed. I'd say its still to early to predict America's demise.
    You seem to be taking Mark Twain's view that reports of America's demise are greatly exaggerated....

    While you may be correct in saying that the standards of living have improved over the years, I would argue that much of that increase in living standards were built on basic infrastructure when America still had a frontier mentality where there was room to move room to grow. Where are the frontiers now, that previously, having a strong sense of individualism was necessary to conquer?

    As tax rates have fallen over the past 50 years governments at all levels no longer have the funds to spend on much needed infrastructure like urban renewal, or urban education. While consumerism and globalisation have brought cheaper prices for all household goods giving a boost to the perception of increased living standards, at the same time the loss of manufacturing industries in household goods has also brought stagnation to and depressed the economies of many of America's large cities and surrounding regions. When you add to that the impact that lowered taxes has had on the way in which the wealthy are now able to speculatively invest their wealth primarily in financial products and not necessarily job creating schemes at home, and it would seem that the cohesion between the layers that once made up America has all but been destroyed and it is only a matter of time before the lack of an ideology that the individual succeeds best only when all of society succeeds comes home to roost and your nation of proud, free individuals, tear each other apart just to stay afloat.
  10. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    07 Apr '15 02:50
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I would be interested in a more objective survey where say a 1000 immigrants from first world nations, who have long enjoyed the benefits of modern technology/infrastructure/education/free national healthcare/
    multiculturalism and anti discrimination frameworks that protect the rights of citizens to live as they choose, regardless of gender or sexual orienta ...[text shortened]... e their enthusiasm to that expressed by the author and the comments posted in the quora article.
    There is no such thing as "free national healthcare".

    You either pay for it yourself after filtering your money through various guvamint bureaucracies or you make someone else pay for it.

    Neither of these is free.
  11. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    07 Apr '15 03:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    There is no such thing as "free national healthcare".

    You either pay for it yourself after filtering your money through various guvamint bureaucracies or you make someone else pay for it.

    Neither of these is free.
    Nothing is 'free' to be sure, there is always a cost, just as sure as there is a cost to provide the institutions required to enforce the rights of property and protect the rights of individuals so that they may enjoy a lifestyle according to NIOF principles.
    Your view seems to hinge on the notion that, that is all that's required of government, as if history never happened, as if vectors in society did not exist, that if left unaddressed would not undo the very two principles you claim are the only two worthy of society, through government, paying for.

    Would that life and society were that straightforward and uncomplicated to manage.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    07 Apr '15 03:17
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I would be interested in a more objective survey where say a 1000 immigrants from first world nations, who have long enjoyed the benefits of modern technology/infrastructure/education/free national healthcare/
    multiculturalism and anti discrimination frameworks that protect the rights of citizens to live as they choose, regardless of gender or sexual orienta ...[text shortened]... e their enthusiasm to that expressed by the author and the comments posted in the quora article.
    Then go commission the survey.

    In the meantime, while I'm sure other first world nations are also doing fine and while most countries have some relative advantages and disadvantages relative to others, the idea that the US is "destined to implode" is hysterical nonsense.

    What's more... I think you know that.
  13. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    07 Apr '15 03:35
    Originally posted by kmax87
    Nothing is 'free' to be sure, there is always a cost, just as sure as there is a cost to provide the institutions required to enforce the rights of property and protect the rights of individuals so that they may enjoy a lifestyle according to NIOF principles.
    Your view seems to hinge on the notion that, that is all that's required of government, as if histo ...[text shortened]... ying for.

    Would that life and society were that straightforward and uncomplicated to manage.
    Just keeping you honest, wouldn't want anyone (including yourself) thinking your ideology has anything to do with 'live as they choose'.
  14. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    07 Apr '15 08:41
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    America will change and progress. The present right wing hysteria (which most Americans don't subscribe to) will pass into history as a major political force fairly soon.
    Are you saying the 'tax is theft crowd' will just sink without a trace?
  15. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    07 Apr '15 09:04
    Originally posted by sh76
    ...In the meantime, while I'm sure other first world nations are also doing fine and while most countries have some relative advantages and disadvantages relative to others, the idea that the US is "destined to implode" is hysterical nonsense.....What's more... I think you know that.
    Thats the problem, I don't know that.

    What I do know is that by opening itself to a myriad of free-trade agreements the world over America has put the wage structure of its professional class under immense downward pressure. American workers have already lost out to India and China in terms of manufacturing. Engineering services will follow suit. What sectors of the economy are left?

    Financial services, the service industry, education, health and other related services, resource mining and farming.

    The internet has ushered in a world where your tax return and blood assays can be done in India. This is just the beginning. Wait till the new normal of going to your local doctor is replaced by a video conference with a blood pressure reading and a digitized urine/blood sample.

    Btw, I don't think America will be the only first world nation to feel the pinch of this new unfolding reality.